ATN NYC B&M Players IMPORTANT

[RustedCorpse]

Just to give everyone a heads up Brooklyn players club was raided last week. All the dealers and management present were arrested and charged with felonies. Furthermore, I have heard from one of the dealers that several players were arrested as well. The dealers were interrogated as to what other clubs are in the city, and what bookies they know. Just to give everyone the heads up it may behoove you as B&M players to let things cool off for a week or two before playing live in one of the clubs just in case.

I don't know concrete if any club in particular is going to be targeted, this club had been investigated before for having booze and such, so it may just have been a post slap on the wrist raid, however to be on the safe side I'd rather give everyone the heads up.

Please note this is partial hearsay, I'm a dealer at another club and have spoken to one of the arrested dealers, furthermore a good friend of mine involved with the police states that it's an actual operation to crack down on gambling called King Flush but doesn't know the exact extend. So again it's probably nothing but I'd rather not see any of your bankrolls confiscated.

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
The dealers were interrogated as to what other clubs are in the city

[/ QUOTE ]

The police already know every club in the city...

[BottlesOf]

I was wondering whether or not this was part of King Flush. You can read about it in the New York Times Metro section today. There was also a story on the sting on Fox's local news. Poker was never mentioned on TV or in the paper, and it was described as a raid on illegal sports gambling operations.

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The dealers were interrogated as to what other clubs are in the city

[/ QUOTE ]

The police already know every club in the city...

[/ QUOTE ]

Almost every club. There are new ones that just opened, the don't work that fast.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[RustedCorpse]

Certain precincts know about clubs, but the city taskforce doesn't know about all of them. The point being a raid has occurred and more are possible.

[Luv2DriveTT]

The NY Times report is a game of incomplete information, we can only speculate on the results based on what we have so far.

Lets evaluate the NY Times article. I will assume it is 100% correct in reguards to the facts presented.

[ QUOTE ]
12 Are Arrested in Gambling Operation

Published: February 7, 2005


welve people were arrested Saturday in an investigation of illegal gambling operations, including Super Bowl wagering, that brought in more than $100 million a year, the authorities said yesterday.

The arrests, part of an investigation known as Kings Flush, were made in a series of raids of betting locations, including private homes and at least one social club - in Manhattan, Queens, Staten Island and Brooklyn.

The arrests were announced by the Brooklyn district attorney, Charles J. Hynes; the Staten Island district attorney, Daniel M. Donovan; and Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly.

Two of the defendants are charged with promoting gambling in the second degree, a misdemeanor, which is punishable by up to a year in prison, the authorities said.

The others were charged with promoting gambling in the first degree, a felony that is punishable by up to four years in prison.


[/ QUOTE ]

1) It was an investigation of illegal gambling operations including super bowl wagering - This means the yearly super bowl time crackdown on bookies has been extended to BPC. In recent history this was the only time of the year when bookies were investigated or busted.

2) The investigation was known as Kings Flush, and spearheaded by the Brooklyn DA. Brooklyn is also known as Kings County. There was at least one social club raided, it also mentiones "private clubs". Isn't a social club a private club, or are they legally considered different? I would assume BPC is the social club described). There were also raids in Manhattan, Queens & Statten Island. There was no representative from Queens present at the press conference.

3) Two defendants were charded with a Misdemeaner. The remaining defendants were charged with promoting gambling in the first degree, a felony that is punishable by up to four years in prison. Since there were only 12 defendants that were charged, and we know they busted at least 4 if not more locations in NYC, is it safe to assume that some of the employees and customers at the BPC may not have been charged after all? Unless BPC was the centerpiece of the investigation, this is a posibility. For the sake of the NYC poker community and the employees there, I sure do hope so.

4) From hearsay, I have been told that the dealers at the Diamond Club were charged with a misdemeanor when it was busted. This may therefore mean there might have been two dealers or staff members present at the time of the bust, unless of course the dealers were allowed to go or they only arested some of the dealers.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[spadeclub99]

[ QUOTE ]
The dealers were interrogated as to what other clubs are in the city, and what bookies they know.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is what the King Flush operation is interested in. It is being touted as going after sports betting. The news that BPC is reopening so soon, gives credence to this.

[Derek in NYC]

BPC is reopening tomorrow. This is just stupid of them.

[spadeclub99]

[ QUOTE ]
BPC is reopening tomorrow. This is just stupid of them.


[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Maybe they were not charged. I am sure they would not be opening in the same location unless they were told it was ok to do so or that the worst that can happen is a raid once or twice a year and some minor fines.

[Derek in NYC]

In order to have raided BPC, the cops needed a search warrant. In order to get a search warrant, the cops needed a CI (confidential informant), who went undercover to the BPC, then swore out an affidavit laying out probable cause. The CI may have worn a wire or taken hidden video. This affidavit and evidence was presented by the DA's office to a judge, who had to grant the warrant. The cops then executed the warrant. It is possible that no arrest occurred, on the other hand, it is possible that the DA's office is preparing a felony complaint or some similar charging instrument. If charges are ultimately brought, the fact that the BPC management made the decision to re-open 3 days after the raid will be admissible. More significantly, stuff like this pisses off DAs. By reopening, the BPC management is saying "screw you and your stupid laws, I'm reopening." If they want to take that chance and assume this was a one-time bust, fine. However if the assistant DA gets pissed about it, it will make settlement more difficult. This is why it is stupid.

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
BPC is reopening tomorrow. This is just stupid of them.

[/ QUOTE ]
Where is this information available?

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[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]
unless of course the dealers were allowed to go or they only arested some of the dealers.
TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
maybe they only arrested the bad dealers?

[spadeclub99]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BPC is reopening tomorrow. This is just stupid of them.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Where is this information available?

TT

[/ QUOTE ]

Check the other thread about this here.

[DrPublo]

I actually have always liked their dealers with the exception of one Korean guy....I find their dealers are generally quicker and friendlier than other places in the city at which I've played. The management there is also top notch.

The Doc

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
management there is also top notch.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[RustedCorpse]

just for a point, there were arrests and it was a felony, a cohort of mine deals and probably isn't going to be able to finish law school now. I understand that the diamond club actually didn't charge most of the dealers, (I work/play with most of the old members). However, I don't want to be vague about this dealers present at BPC were charged with felonies and at least two players were arrested (I don't know if they were charged). More importantly no one was allowed to cash out. The how's why's etc, I don't really care about I just want to let my fellow 2+2er's know to consider the risk to your bankroll if you play live in the next month.

[afish]

You really don't get it. You can't let things "cool off" for a couple weeks. What does that even mean? These places are illegal, and they publicized themselves to such an extent that the NYPD felt they had to take action. This is the Mayfair Club and Diamond Club all over again. Diamond tried to reopen, and I think there were further arrests.

I've never been in any of these places, and if I were a poker player who didn't want a rap sheet, I'd stay away.

[RustedCorpse]

Actually you can let things "Cool off", in the city they tend to do this crap in groups, the last big "sweep" resulted in the closing of the mayfair, diamond club, and the change of venue for playstation. Evetually they'll fade back out of the spotlight.

[Derek in NYC]

I doubt that a felony prosecution against a law school student would be particularly attractive. The dealers almost certainly will end up taking a misdemeanor or some sort. Albert is in a different situation. I would expect that the DA will want him to, at a minimum, disgorge a substantial fine. If he has previously had serious problems with the law, he may need to do a small amount of time, which is never a happy proposition in the state system. Your law student friend will probably not have problems with completing law school, however the state licensure committee will undoubtedly look twice at his application after he passes the Bar exam. He will probably need to go before the Committee on Character and Fitness, and will need to do a song and dance. Ultimately, assuming it is settled as a misdemeanor, this tends to be the type of stuff that wont prevent licensure, however.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
the last big "sweep" resulted in the closing of the mayfair, diamond club, and the change of venue for playstation.

[/ QUOTE ]
Assuming the "change of venue" you refer to is when the midtown club moved and turned into the playstation, that was well after the diamond and mayfair were shut down.

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually you can let things "Cool off", in the city they tend to do this crap in groups, the last big "sweep" resulted in the closing of the mayfair, diamond club, and the change of venue for playstation. Evetually they'll fade back out of the spotlight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not positive it will this time... it might fade away, and it might not. Poker is in the public eye for the first time ever, and even though many think there is nothing wrong with what we do it is still an illegal activity in the State of NY. What we just saw may be the first step in a series of sweeps, but then again it may not be. We may not see another sweep until the next Super Bowl, or we may begin to systematically see each room shut down or harrassed one by one.

This reminds me of the nightclub crackdown that took place during the Guliani administration, and has surprisingly continued (at a lesser force however). At the time I worked in the nightlife industry. We all thought it was over when the first nightclub sweep took place and there was not another problem for months.... but the administration did not forget about nightlife. The police came back with a multi-unit task force to each and every major venue in NYC multiple times during the year. The Fire, Health, Police, Sanitation, and 5 other departments would decend on a venue at the same time delivering a barage of tickets and violations to the owners of the nightclubs which the administration wanted gone. Since they could not legistlate the closure of these clubs, they harrased the clubs into closing. The Limelight, The Tunnel, Sound Factory, the list goes on.

What I am saying is that we cannot trust past experiance, this may be the first step in a new wave of crackdowns. I personally will be waiting more than a month before I return to the bigger clubs.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[Evan]

Why did they "crack down" on a legal business?

[afish]

Yeah. It is threads like this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=cardroom&Number=1649558&Fo rum=,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,&Words=&Searchpage=4&Limit =25&Main=1649531&Search=true&where=&Name=11253&dat erange=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=& bodyprev=#Post1649558) that provoked the response. Once these sites started advertising, and players started posting trip reports from them, a shut down was inevitable. I never played in these places, so it is no skin off my back. But people should understand that these places are closer to Tony Soprano's "executive game" than they are to the Taj.

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
Why did they "crack down" on a legal business?

[/ QUOTE ]

They were under pressure from the community board, the press, and it was part of Mayor Gulliani's public nusance mission. He belived that all nightclubs should be shut down because drug use was taking place. Well... drug use takes place all over NYC, not just nightclubs. After that strategy failed (see the Peter Gatien trials, and his eventual aquittal) and since he could not legistlativly shut down the businesses he deemed a public nusance, he instead had his administration ticket them to death. Many ended up loosing their liquor lisence, a few lost their caberet lisence. I survived, but it was enough to make me want to leave the business for good.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
You really don't get it. You can't let things "cool off" for a couple weeks. What does that even mean? These places are illegal, and they publicized themselves to such an extent that the NYPD felt they had to take action. This is the Mayfair Club and Diamond Club all over again. Diamond tried to reopen, and I think there were further arrests.

I've never been in any of these places, and if I were a poker player who didn't want a rap sheet, I'd stay away.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who doesn't get it?

You don't get a "rap sheet" for a "violation" -- that is no more than a parking ticket. A violation is less than a misdemeanor. As I understand it, players were only charged with loitering -- a violation under New York law. Only those running (or working for) the club can be charged with a crime.

Also, loitering laws in many jurisdiction have been found unconstitutional. I don't know if NY's law has been tested. There is a good chance these tickets will be thrown out -- the real risk is to your bankroll on the table... you may only have a worthless stack of pretty red and green (and, if you're lucky, black) chips.

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually you can let things "Cool off", in the city they tend to do this crap in groups, the last big "sweep" resulted in the closing of the mayfair, diamond club, and the change of venue for playstation. Evetually they'll fade back out of the spotlight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not positive it will this time... it might fade away, and it might not.

[/ QUOTE ]

And that is the reason to be cautious if you work or run one of these places... This may or may notd have been a part of the usual Super Bowl Sunday gambling sweep -- usually limited to bookies and sports betting. If it is the annual sweep, it will fade away... no way to know for sure.

Funny thing is -- there appear to be three or four different rooms poised to open in the next few weeks... at least thats what I gather from the various message boards.

C

[spadeclub99]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, loitering laws in many jurisdiction have been found unconstitutional. I don't know if NY's law has been tested. There is a good chance these tickets will be thrown out -- the real risk is to your bankroll on the table... you may only have a worthless stack of pretty red and green (and, if you're lucky, black) chips.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is true. See the following cites of New York case law. If anyone is given a ticket for loitering due to being in a social club playing poker they should plead not guilty.

Disclaimer: This is not legal advice, if you have been charged with a crime please seek legal advice from an attorney.

Here is the relevant part of the loitering statute.
§ 240.35. Loitering

A person is guilty of loitering when he:


2. Loiters or remains in a public place for the purpose of gambling with cards, dice or other gambling paraphernalia

Here is case law stating that this clause in unconstitutional.

CLS Penal § 240.35(2), providing that person is guilty of loitering when he loiters or remains in public place for purpose of gambling, is of doubtful constitutional validity, since it punishes conduct anticipatory of or attendant to lawful gambling activity. People v Melton (1991, Sup) 152 Misc 2d 649, 578 NYS2d 377.

CLS Penal § 240.35(2) is unconstitutional, since gambling is not illegal unless person advances gambling activity when acting other than as player. People v Davidson (1999, Sup) 181 Misc 2d 999, 696 NYS2d 640.

Also see this:

Defendant's conduct of gambling with dice on private property, on driveway in rear yard of private residence, did not occur in "public place," requiring dismissal of CLS Penal § 240.35(2) loitering charge. People v Ocasio (2001, City Ct) 186 Misc 2d 822, 720 NYS2d 908.

[Voltron87]

I heard at NYPC that they're closing down new memberships. They're probably going to have to be a little more discreet.

I'm also curious as to what happens to any underage persons in the club if the police show up and they don't/won't show ID.

[Luv2DriveTT]

ANYONE who doesn't show id goes downtown to central processing. If it is the evening they are released the next morning. If it is a weekend.... lets just say its not pretty.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[Voltron87]

What kind of legal repercussions would be involved? A small slap on the wrist fine (ie the real punishment is going to bookings and staying the night) or a real charge and record? If said suspect is under 18?

[RustedCorpse]

As far as NYPC, no we're not taking new members, BUT, we've taken out all the paperwork to, so if someone asks you if you're a member, just say yes.

[other1]

What are you, some kind of lawyer? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

How can you loiter on private property when you are there with the owner's permission? I know that loitering is stretched to include gathering for an illegal activity, but I thought that was only in public places. If I smoke pot at home am I loitering?

[Voltron87]

What does it take to get credit at NYPC and be in the computer? A deposit?

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
What are you, some kind of lawyer? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

How can you loiter on private property when you are there with the owner's permission? I know that loitering is stretched to include gathering for an illegal activity, but I thought that was only in public places.

[/ QUOTE ]

Statute is probably unconstitutional. If I tell you anything else I would have to charge you for the advice.


[ QUOTE ]
If I smoke pot at home am I loitering?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. <---Disclaimer: This is not legal advice.

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
As far as NYPC, no we're not taking new members, BUT, we've taken out all the paperwork to, so if someone asks you if you're a member, just say yes.

[/ QUOTE ] </font>

THANK YOU!!!! That was always one of my biggest concerns. Luckilly I was one of the first members, and was not required to fill out legitimate paperwork. But my personal info is on file with other rooms around NYC, and I don't like it at all.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
What does it take to get credit at NYPC and be in the computer? A deposit?

[/ QUOTE ]

To my knowlege there is no current room in NYC that will extend credit to a player. Gambling is bad enough, but loansharking is an offence that nobody wants to deal with.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[other1]

Yeah.. I've always wondered who/what/how keeping these records is supposed to help anyone should a club get in trouble with the law.

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What does it take to get credit at NYPC and be in the computer? A deposit?

[/ QUOTE ]

To my knowlege there is no current room in NYC that will extend credit to a player. Gambling is bad enough, but loansharking is an offence that nobody wants to deal with.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


Players go on the sheet at NYPC all the time, I'm just not familiar with the system. They get chips without cash, and I'm wondering whether they left money in early or what...

[Voltron87]

To clarify these are all regulars, not walk ins, but I'm just curious as I play there a lot.

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
Players go on the sheet at NYPC all the time, I'm just not familiar with the system. They get chips without cash, and I'm wondering whether they left money in early or what...

[/ QUOTE ]

TT hasn't played at PC in months (no limit games = no TT, even though TT is a huge fan of the room and really like it's management). TT is surprised to hear that there was a sheet.... since for a while there was a sign specifically forbiding markers.

TT - in the third person

[other1]

I really can't believe this conversation is happening.

Its not bad enough to discuss illegal gambling clubs in public.. now you are talking about loansharking.

Hey, anyone know a good whorehouse and drug dealer why you are at it?

Why don't you just talk to someone, in private, next time you are at the club..?

[Derek in NYC]

Just to be clear, does NYPC run markers with juice, or do players just deposit money, so that they dont have to carry a gangster roll?

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
Just to be clear, does NYPC run markers with juice, or do players just deposit money, so that they dont have to carry a gangster roll?

[/ QUOTE ]

They definitely allow players to put money on deposit for exactly the reason stated here... can't speak to the other part.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Just to be clear, does NYPC run markers with juice, or do players just deposit money, so that they dont have to carry a gangster roll?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sure a fine establishment like that would safely hold money for it's patrons as a service and to avoid crime problems. I'm sure they wouldn't be involved in serious crime by making illegal loans.

I'm sure law enforcement authorities would never google their way to 2+2.

I'm sure anyone who cares about the well-being of poker would refrain from speculating further about the business practices of the NYC clubs.

Enough said I hope.

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure law enforcement authorities would never google their way to 2+2.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree about verything else you said except this. Law Enforcement uses Google too.... And since 2+2 is fully searchable via Google its easy for them to use data provided here or a host of other sites that discuss NYC based poker barns.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[BottlesOf]

Err, does 3rd person TT not acknowledge sarcasm either?

[Evan]

Jesus dude, lemme help you with SW's post.

[sarcasm]
I'm sure law enforcement authorities would never google their way to 2+2.
[/ fuc[/i]king sarcasm]

[Derek in NYC]

Point well taken, but anonymous postings discovered on the Internet through Google are not sufficient to support a probable cause hearing. Such postings might trigger an investigation, at worst. Clubs get busted because somebody swears out an affidavit, whether a CI, or a disgruntled person.

The plain fact is that these clubs will only run into trouble if one of four things happens: (1) there is a policy decision made by NYPD, the DA's office, or the Mayor's office to crack down on poker clubs, (2) a violent incident occurs at a club (3) complaints by employees, patrons, or neighbors are lodged, or (4) there is an organized crime connection.

Thus, if clubs allow mechanics to play and patrons feel cheated, if they shortchange or stiff their employees, if they are inconsiderate neighbors, if somebody gets beat up at a club, etc., they will get busted.

I personally feel no obligation to keep the existence of a club "secret" when its management has operated openly (e.g., posting on Craigslist).

Besides, if you've ever met most of these club owners, they simply dont have the ability to extend credit because they dont have the ability to enforce a default. Unlike organized crime operations, where the threat of violence is a strong persuader, I can't imagine that half of these club owners could fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

Teddy KGB makes for good Hollywood, but I have not encountered any clubs in the city even approaching that level of lowlife.

[other1]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure anyone who cares about the well-being of poker would refrain from speculating further about the business practices of the NYC clubs.

Enough said I hope.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sadly I doubt it.

[giantsrule]

I've lurked on and off for a year or 2 (thanks for improving my game) so I figured I should finally contribute something.

As stated, loitering is a violation of the law but isn't a crime so someone found guilty of it would not have a criminal record (they would not have been convicted of a crime).

In the other thread on this someone said that you can't go to jail for loitering. That's wrong. Loitering is punishable by up to 15 days in jail, but of course that doesn't mean that you'd get jail time. The charge is loitering in a public place for the purpose of gambling. The first and probably best defense to such a charge is that a card club isn't a public place. A public place is defined as "a place to which the public or a substantial group of persons has access, and includes...places of amusement..." I'm surprised to hear players have been charged with this. I don't know that those membership forms do much for the people running and working in the club, but maybe it would help a player facing such a charge. It is correct that the basic NY state gambling laws in the penal law which prohibit advancing or profiting from gambling exclude players. I'm not certain about other laws such as NYC local laws. Someone asked about being under 18. If you're 18 or under and have no record you almost certainly qualify for mandatory youthful offender treatment which means that your first misdemeanor conviction gets replaced with a youthful offender adjudication so that the result is you have not been convicted of a crime and the record is sealed (this doesn't apply to violations because they aren't crimes). But I don't know of a misdemeanor charge that would apply to players, though I'm not certain there isn't one. Finally if you were arrested and charged and held on a Friday night you would not have to wait until Monday to see a judge and get released (or have bail set). Courts are open for arraingments on the weekend. But as others have said, you probably walk away that night, hopefully with no charges though probably without being able to cash in.

[spadeclub99]

Other than the defencse that a club is not a public place, I posted earlier in this thread the the portion of the loitering statute relating to gambling is probably unconstitutional under NY law. See my post for the NY case law supporting that.

[giantsrule]

I looked at those cases (all lower court cases). Unfortunately, one was reversed on appeal with the upstate appeals court ruling that the loitering for gambling statute is constitutional. People v. Davidson, 291 A.D.2d 810 (4th Dept. 2002).

[kirisim]

So, who's going to the Playstation for a 2+2 gathering this weekend?

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
So, who's going to the Playstation for a 2+2 gathering this weekend?

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you smoking, and can you share it with the rest of us?

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[NJchick]

[ QUOTE ]
So, who's going to the Playstation for a 2+2 gathering this weekend?

[/ QUOTE ]


Sir, please stop taking hits from your crack pipe before posting...

[RustedCorpse]

They run a sheet, thrown into a computer at the end of the night. No juice is tallied, yet, probably going to change soon. To get on the sheet just make a deposit. If you want a line it depends, you generally have to know someone (no). Some people who loosely know Mr. E can probably have half of thier deposit matched.

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
They run a sheet, thrown into a computer at the end of the night. No juice is tallied, yet, probably going to change soon. To get on the sheet just make a deposit. If you want a line it depends, you generally have to know someone (no). Some people who loosely know Mr. E can probably have half of thier deposit matched.

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet they're thrilled you posted this.

scrub

[RustedCorpse]

Yeah but I don't care, they don't hold limit games any more and that makes me sad.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
they don't hold limit games any more

[/ QUOTE ]
You mean any more like since August? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah but I don't care, they don't hold limit games any more and that makes me sad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you still work there?

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet they're thrilled you posted this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I bet they don't. They're remarkably cavalier about too many things and more than a bit short-sighted.

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I bet they don't. They're remarkably cavalier about too many things and more than a bit short-sighted.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, if I were a cardroom, I'd be them!

scrub

[RustedCorpse]

I'm assuming no one on 22 is stupid enough to be like "hey one of your employee's is talking about you on 22"

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I bet they don't. They're remarkably cavalier about too many things and more than a bit short

[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, if I were a cardroom, I'd be them!
scrub

[/ QUOTE ]
I fixed the original post. Now they're Evan!

[Evan]

Don't make me break out the Jedi mind tricks that turnipmonster so crudely exposed.

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I bet they don't. They're remarkably cavalier about too many things and more than a bit short

[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, if I were a cardroom, I'd be them!
scrub

[/ QUOTE ]
I fixed the original post. Now they're Evan!

[/ QUOTE ]

You have been kicking ass with the editing today.

scrub