10-25NL Live AK Hand

[PokerForMath]

I was playing a live 10-25 game and there were a lot of top ranked players there. I was in the small blind when the following hand came up.

There were two limpers to the button who raised to $175. To my mind this was a big raise for this guy though he might have been trying to steal the pot. I had about $2000 in front of me and called with AcKs. The flop came

Kd 4h 6h

I bet out $400. He raised it to $1000 (called my $400 and raised $600). I folded. My logic was:

(a) what could I have to have called the $175 and then led out with $400?

(b) I was a rather solid player at this table. I had not bet out a lot and when I did I had the goods. He had to put me on at least AK. He might have AhKh. He might have KhQh but that's about it. He is not raising with QQ. Chances are he has AA.

(c) He has to think I have at least AK, so what is he raising with?

(d) If he has AA he might be afraid of a set of kings and not raise "too much". He also might be inviting me in.

(e) If (d) is true, I might move in and take the pot, but it's risky. A lot of people at this table were calling with AA in all sorts of situations.

My opponent told me later what he had. I am not sure I believe him, but I did I make a good laydown?

[tbach24]

I would fold this pre-flop. Out of position against a very good player.

[lapoker17]

This wasn't a great time to lead the flop. Check/call the flop, lead the turn. The hand plays differently. He may have had a better hand, but whatever, play it my way, I think.

[istewart]

I don't necessarily know if he's "very" good if OP can identify a "big raise" from him. And then what does this flop raise mean, if it's essentially a minraise?

[PokerForMath]

My opponent was loose enough that this raise could easily have been TT, JJ, QQ. I led out thinking I would determine if he had AA.

[tbach24]

LP raise from a "loose" player means a SC or something. Not a good pair. Or is this an extremely tight game? Or do you mean his flop raise?

[PokerForMath]

Terminology please: what is an SC?

I meant his flop raise could have meant a pair, but I thought when he raised my $400 bet on the flop he had to have AA. But, apparently I was wrong.

[tbach24]

Where does it say that OP can identify a big raise from him?

[tbach24]

Suited Connected (i.e 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif). Lots of good players will raise with these in LP.

[PokerForMath]

I totally agree that when he raised pre-flop he might have had suited connectors, any pair or KQ or anything. But when he raised me $600 on the flop I reacted as if he had to have something reasonable. What do you think?

[tbach24]

Changed my mind...I'm re-raising this pre-flop. If you think that this is a steal from this player, then you don't want to let him see a flop in position against you.

[tbach24]

Is this player aggressive?

[WorldBeater]

Some possiblities here.
1. Your opponent had a better made hand
2. He was on a draw.
3. He was making a move.

You lead out on the flop. It's possible he thought you were weak when you lead out (maybe he put you on AKing), and he decided to make a play becuase he had nothing, and thought there was a good chance you would fold.

I'd like to know, if you had a set or a big draw, would you have lead out on the same flop? Is it possible he read your lead as weakness? This is only relevant if you think he's capable, or likely to be making a play. So many players don't bluff in situations like this. But if one was to make a bluff, you seem to be the type of player that a lot of people would want to try it on (very solid, capable of folding a good hand). I'm interested to hear what he had. From reading your post I got the idea that maybe he made you fold the best hand, but that is only a guess.

Your fold seems to be reasonable.

[PokerForMath]

He told me later he had AA, but who knows, lots of people lie or tell you what you want to hear. He did ask me twice after the hand what I would have done if he had smooth called me.

One of the hardest things in poker is ever knowing if you made the right laydown. Obviously you want to do things to clarify the situation and I bet out on the flop to do so. I figured if he was playing with a weak pair or something he would fold or smooth call to see what I would do on the turn.

I am capable of making a good laydown, but I want to make more re-raises when I am being played!

To answer another question, this player was not overly aggressive with raises. He did bet a lot from the button, but he seemed to have the goods when he raised. On the other hand during this session I had terrible, terrible cards and was not playing a lot (hence I looked weak).

An interesting aside: two hands later, a guy who openly criticized me for not raising all in called an all in bet in almost an identical situation. The flop was king high, he led out big on the flop and was raised all in. He called and of course the guy had AK. So, I kind of thought that guy had it coming to him.

[PokerForMath]

I like the thought! If I re-raise pre-flop and he calls, then what?

[tbach24]

If you hit the board, then bet it out.

[Matt Flynn]

most likely you got played

[partygirluk]

I don't like playing AK out of position against a good player.

I like making it 450ish PF, then leading out 600 or so on most flops.

[fsuplayer]

matt, is this a good time for your (patented) 'reraise big pf and move in if you miss and check if you hit plays'? or does the button need to be more maniacal for that?

[PokerForMath]

Ok, so that seems to be the consensus, how would you have played it from start to finish to win the pot?

[PokerForMath]

It's a good question!

[Matt Flynn]

based on description absolutely not unless i put him on a weak raise, in which case i am not going to let him see that flop cheap. default is to call against described player, and you need a good read to do otherwise.

if he hits a set of aces, i hope he spends my money well. not saying i wouldn't take my time to figure out where i stood (and at the same time induce action), but default is chips go in the middle with a $425 pot and $1825 lesser stack behind there. you then have to figure out the best way to maximize, which usually means checking the flop. sometimes you lead the turn, sometimes you check. but stack is small enough that you have no intention of preserving it and just want to maximize income when you are ahead.

matt

[PokerForMath]

Matt, thanks. So if I understand you correctly you are saying you would move in after he re-raises you or better yet check-raise him all in.

What range of hands do you put a guy on that he re-raises you after the flop that you are sure you are ahead enough of the time to justify moving in?

[JasonP530]

If you thought there was a decent chance he was on a steal, how come you didnt reraise? If youre going to fold any flop that misses you, and fold to any agression when you hit, then why didnt you fold in the first place(asking, not being sarcastic)? If you were going to fold when you hit the hand like that, then couldnt you call preflop with any two, lead and hope he folded, since youre not calling his raise anyways). I just dont understand what this play will do for you in terms of the game. Youre not expecting to get his stack, and you cant win just a little bit without risking a lot, so it doesnt seem to be worth it to be in there in the first place.

[JaBlue]

Your problem is game selection.

Your logic makes no sense. If villain will raise that spot with 1010-QQ preflop, I would expect that he is capable of a bluff-raise on the flop.

[TStoneMBD]

if you think that folding AK in the BB because you cannot outplay the solid player in LP, then you shouldnt be playing in the game. that said, this is not a good situation to reraise as you are committing nearly 1/3 of your chips on a standard raise and will not be able to play your hand postflop when you miss, which will happen 1:3 times.

however, i do not believe that folding to a raise on this flop is a safe play. i think that it is very possible that LP will raise you with a weaker pair. he is putting your stack at risk for an extra $600 while determining where he is at. also, if your image is so tight that leading at this flop tips off the strength of your hand, you should have checkraised instead. villain wont be able to play back at you with a checkraise with a weaker hand. lets say for instance that villain has TT. raising your lead is a standard play if villain wants to procede. against your image it may be correct for him to fold, but many players will not be folding TT on this flop so quickly. if you are in a game that allows a player to fold TT on this flop then you need to leave, change your image, or checkraise instead. however, if you are certain that villain cannot raise your flop bet with a weaker hand, but will call you down instead, then leading is a strong option. against a winning player at this level however, that shouldnt be the case and from the way you have played this hand it appears you are playing above your head.

[AdamsPappa]

I agree with TStoneMBD and would like to add following. What kind of action would you have taken if you have held KK? Would you have re-raised preflop with KK in BB? Your opponent might have that read on you. Hence, if he hold AA and you just call a big raise in the blind he might be thinking that you have pair up to QQ or AK. His flop play becomes very logical. I guess he would have raised you with any hand actually.

If you lead into the raiser you should be prepared to go all in if he raises your bet. Since your heads up you shouldn´t take the preflop raiser out of the lead, that is if you are prepared to move in with AK. He raised preflop and it is almost mandatory to bet on the flop no matter what. Check raise in this spot would be a very powerful play. I believe you have to think a step ahead in the future. What action will I take if raises me for half my stack? What will I do?

Good luck in the future

[PokerForMath]

Thanks a lot for this very informative reply. A question for you. You say ...

"if you are in a game that allows a player to fold TT on this flop then you need to leave, change your image, or checkraise instead."

What did you mean by ths?

Also, at you mentioned that at this level players can easily re-raise there with a pair to find out where they are at? What level do you mean (good players? 10-25NL?) Would be helpful.

No doubt I was probably in over my head, but I only use this forum to talk about my losing hands!