Was my turn bet loose?

[Kid Sheleen 05]

I have not progressed to the point where I can measure pot odds. I played this one by instinct and my instinct tells me that I was loose. I would appreciate any comments.

Paradise Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, Button calls, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 folds, Button calls, Hero calls.

River: (7.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 folds, Button calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

[shadow29]

No. You had the odds for your gutshot on both streets.

[milesdyson]

8:1 on the flop with 3-4 outs, fold here.

47 unseen cards, let's say 3.5 outs to discount for the K/images/graemlins/heart.gif. 47/3.5 = 13.4. This means if this is properly discounted (I believe it is), that there would have to be 13 bets in the pot for you to call.

You're not going to win much when you hit a non-/images/graemlins/heart.gif K and you're going to lose a lot when you hit it and end up losing to a rivered flush. So, IMO you don't have enough with implied odds to call, either.

[shadow29]

He needs 10:1 to call on the flop. I think he can make it up with 4 players.

[milesdyson]

I know this is results oriented, but the final pot isn't even 10 BB. I feel that's how this hand ends relatively often.

Hero risks getting caught by a turn T or Q in a situation where he can't raise to get more bets in the pot and even if his gutshot does come through, it's often a split. I don't like calling here on a two-heart board, either.

Buut, I'll conclude it's nearly neutral, even after I tried to convince myself a fold was right. I still fold, because I don't like this situation and I feel that calling here increases my BB/100 by .01 at most (if I play it perfectly for the rest of the hand). And that's over a decade of horrible variance with the hand.

[VBM]

This turn is a common situation that I don't see a *whole* lot of discussion about; on the surface it's like your hand improves, but how much does it actually improve?

It seems like you can add 2 Q outs to trips and, presumably the best hand, but one of them is /images/graemlins/heart.gif, so you need to discount the flush possibility.

Outs: 1.5 (i'm knocking off half an out for a /images/graemlins/heart.gif)

Maybe you can add the river-T's to Q's-up, but can you really? They make a gutshot for someone who has a K. a T/images/graemlins/heart.gif is also probably partially discounted...so what to do? you have 2 pair, but how often is it good? more particularly, is it good vs these villains? There are 3 unseen T's, but given their dubious nature,

Outs: i'm giving it 1 out.

And, of course, a river K/images/graemlins/heart.gif is an iffy proposition too; it may or may not help you...
Outs: 3.5 (discounted 1/2 for the K/images/graemlins/heart.gif)

1.5 + 1 + 3.5 = 6, so you need 7.5:1
So, by my subjective discounting outs, you're getting 6.5:1 on the turn, so you need to make up one on the river for the times you do make your straight (like you did here);
BUT, you also need to think about how you're going to play a rivered T, a Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, or K/images/graemlins/heart.gif...

[Shillx]

I have not progressed to the point where I can measure pot odds. I played this one by instinct and my instinct tells me that I was loose.

Huh? On a scale from 1-10, learning pot odds and using them effectivly is a 1. Playing by instinct is like a 7. It takes a lot of hands to figure out betting patterns from different types of players and what they mean. By the time you have played 200k hands (and you are starting to see what is going on) you will have pot odds down pat or you would have gone broke within the first 20k.

Brad