Poker Superstars Buy In a Fraud!

[Vee Quiva]

I know a couple of people in this community caught the comment that Gus Hanson only won 1 million of the 3.2 million prize pool. They never showed what the other guys made. They tried to make a big deal on the show and in the article in Card Player magazine that all the players put up $400,000 of their own money to see "Who's the best player in the world".

If they want these guys to stay interested make it a true freezout like the WSOP Tournament of Champions where it's all or nothing.

Plus everyone knows TJ doesn't have that kind of scratch since he blows all his money at the craps table. I'd love to know who the poor suckers are that keep bankrolling him.

[freekobe]

A) There was a deal cut at the WSOP Tournament of Championship between Hellmuth and Duke

B) How does giving all the money to the winner v. giving 1/3 to the winner diminish Gus Hansen's accomplishment?

C) 8th place got 150,000

[illab]

Yeah I'm sure nobody even tried since it wasn't a true freezeout. Just like I like bet nobody made deals to spilt the money at the tourney of champions.

[Army Eye]

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Plus everyone knows TJ doesn't have that kind of scratch since he blows all his money at the craps table. I'd love to know who the poor suckers are that keep bankrolling him.

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Yeah.. gee.. TJ's backers must be real disappointed with their returns /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Vee Quiva]

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A) There was a deal cut at the WSOP Tournament of Championship between Hellmuth and Duke

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I haven't seen this confirmed anywhere. I know the folks at ESPN were pretty adamant about no deals. Plus Phil sure didn't look like he got a deal when he was ranting and raving after he lost.

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B) How does giving all the money to the winner v. giving 1/3 to the winner diminish Gus Hansen's accomplishment?

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I don't think it diminishes Gus' accomplishment. I think he should have won all 3.2 Million.

[JRegs]

I'm sure the Fox Sports Network paid the players to appear on the show. I mean, what's the point of appearing on national television for an extended tournament when they can just as easily get together at the Bellagio?

[slickpoppa]

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A) There was a deal cut at the WSOP Tournament of Championship between Hellmuth and Duke

[/ QUOTE ]
There was a strict policy against making deals for this tournament. So if Duke and Helmuth did make a deal, I really doubt that you would know about it.

[ddss6_99]

25k apperance fee if I'm not mistaken

[freekobe]

Don't doubt it, slick poppa. No reason for me to mislead here - I've got nothing to gain. There is a "strict policy" against making deals at every WPT tournament too - if you think they're not getting done there, you're crazy.

[TransientR]

Well, aside from the appearance fee, since a number of these players are promoting poker sites/products/books, national TV exposure is worth something in itself.

Frank

[slickpoppa]

Duke and Hellmuth had no reason to tell anyone else if they made a deal. In fact, they had several really good reasons not to. In addition to possibly forfeiting their winnings, I'm sure that Phil would not want to tarnish his bad boy image by admitting to making a deal with Annie.

[freekobe]

OK. You win. I have no idea what I'm talking about.

[maurile]

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OK. You win. I'm have no idea what I'm talking about.

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Of course you don't. Annie has specifically stated on these forums that there was no deal.

Maybe she was lying, but if she was, I'd lay good odds that Annie & Phil & their backers* (and maybe Howard) are the only ones who'd know about it. And you're obviously not Annie, Phil, Howard, or a backer, or you'd keep your mouth shut about it as well.

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*I don't know about Phil, but Annie said she sold 40% of herself.

[freekobe]

I will not convince you and that's fine. I'm OK with that. If you don't think deals are getting made at these tables, and you believe in the intergrity of these players in adhering to their signed agreements, more power to you.

Clearly, I am not one of their backers, but to flat-out state that I don't know if there was a deal seems a bit presumptuous, no?

[superleeds]

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Clearly, I am not one of their backers, but to flat-out state that I don't know if there was a deal seems a bit presumptuous, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

No I don't think so. Expecting us all on this site to believe you are privy to some inside imformation based on a few posts and and your handle, yes?

[freekobe]

Not saying you have to believe me, but to dismiss it outright may be a mistake, that's all. You shouldn't believe 99% of what you read on this site. But sometimes, things you read are true. That's all I'm saying. I couldn't care less if you "believe" me - I'm just saying deals happen.

You don't know me from Adam and you shouldn't be expected to believe me. I'm just providing an alternative point of view, one that I believe to be true. To dismiss it bc of how many posts I have or because of my name...well, that's your choice.

[skoal2k4]

[ QUOTE ]

Clearly, I am not one of their backers, but to flat-out state that I don't know if there was a deal seems a bit presumptuous, no?


[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know a deal was made? serious question... how did you hear about it?

[Tevyee]

Freekobe, you are just speculating now. I wholeheartedly agree that deals are always struck at the table between players. In the 2003 WSOP Finals, Moneymaker offered to split the money with Farha who refused (regretfully /images/graemlins/smirk.gif). Phil Hellmuth doesn't care as much about the money as he does about being titled the champion.

[freekobe]

Obviously, this is not the kind of place to say where I heard this info, and I realize that this hurts my credibility. Like many of these types of things, you hear them through the grapevine. Of course, you don't have to believe me, and I certainly understand why you wouldn't believe/trust me. I just know that my grapevine is shorter and more authoritative than most.

Could I be wrong? Possibly. I think my information is accurate. To the one poster who cited Annie's presence on this site as the defining reason why there wasn't a deal struck....I ask this: what else is she going to say?

[freekobe]

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Phil Hellmuth doesn't care as much about the money as he does about being titled the champion.

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You think Phil Hellmuth would rather have 250,000 or be named champion of the made for TV Tournament of Champions? I don't think that's close. I have ZERO basis for saying that, but I think that even to those guys, 250k is a lot of money.

[jojobinks]

back to the subject at hand...the 400k "buyin", and whether it was a fraud.

if 8th place got 150k, and they were each paid 25k to appear, doesn't that mean the buyin was 225k each?

btw, i doubt even that number. why would they make these guys buy in? what if a few refused, and they were forced to invite someone like farha or gavin griffin (no offense, mate)? that woulda hurt the old 8 greatest players in the world thing, wouldn't it?

[TightIsRight]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A) There was a deal cut at the WSOP Tournament of Championship between Hellmuth and Duke

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There was a strict policy against making deals for this tournament. So if Duke and Helmuth did make a deal, I really doubt that you would know about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Regarding all this about a deal at the ToC, Negreanu writes:
On the break, I was feeling pretty good about making a comeback, and my focus was intensifying. I was chatting with Phil Hellmuth, and he said, “No offense, Daniel, but I have to root against you tonight.”

“Fair enough, Phil, but why is that?”

“Well, because as soon as you get knocked out, we can make a deal.”

Phil knows my policy on dealmaking, and even in an event in which it is $2 million for first and nothing for second, I wasn’t about to compromise my position on dealmaking. I genuinely believe we need to eliminate deals from tournament poker, and more importantly, from televised events.

link (http://cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/?a_id=14380&m_id=65550)

[freekobe]

My guess is Negreanu's commentary on this won't be enough for the posters in this forum. Jesus Christ would have to tell them there was a deal to believe it.

Thanks for the link.

[jojobinks]

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My guess is Negreanu's commentary on this won't be enough for the posters in this forum. Jesus Christ would have to tell them there was a deal to believe it.

Thanks for the link.

[/ QUOTE ]

i guess negreanu's commentary, while undoubtedly true, doesn't mean that a deal was actually cut. the way i read it:

DN doesn't cut deals. everyone else is more likely to. so phil was joking with him about hoping he busted out so they could chop.

again; i don't believe DN has reason to lie, so i guess that conversation happened. there is, however, quite a leap of logic to then infer that a deal was actually made.

i guess that's your inside source, eh?

[freekobe]

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I guess that's your inside source, eh?

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No, that wasn't my source. Just pointing out that there is someone who you all are much more likely to believe discussing the prospect of a deal at the TOC. If my "source" was that link, wouldn't I have posted that in my original post?

It's unclear to me why Phil would be joking here, but again, you can choose to believe whomever you want. Of course, if you believe there was no deal, nothing will convince you otherwise. Negreanu's commentary would appear to lend support to what I was saying.

[jojobinks]

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I guess that's your inside source, eh?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, that wasn't my source. Just pointing out that there is someone who you all are much more likely to believe discussing the prospect of a deal at the TOC. If my "source" was that link, wouldn't I have posted that in my original post?

It's unclear to me why Phil would be joking here, but again, you can choose to believe whomever you want. Of course, if you believe there was no deal, nothing will convince you otherwise. Negreanu's commentary would appear to lend support to what I was saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's not true to say there is no way i could be convinced. there is no way i'll be convinced by what i've heard so far.

you've never heard hellmuth say anything that was disengenuous? you've never heard him joke? or bs?

and you haven't really addressed my point, which is that even if PH felt like after DN busted out there was a better chance of a chop, it's quite a leap to then assume it happened.

i couldn't be less interested in playing guessing games about your source. i'm sure it's very impressive.

[freekobe]

I'm not asking you to guess my sources. I'm just asking that people consider the very real possibility that there was a deal at this particular tournament and in tournaments in general.

I agree - taking Phil's comments in Daniel's blog and determining that a deal was indeed made is a bit of a leap. That should not be conclusive proof. However, it does, at the very least, lay a foundation for what I've asserted here.

[maurile]

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Of course, if you believe there was no deal, nothing will convince you otherwise.

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Nothing? All it would take is some evidence. But there isn't any.

Besides, this isn't about whether we believe there was a deal. Maybe there was, maybe there wasn't. None of us can say either way. So I'm not saying there wasn't a deal; I'm saying that your claim to know that there was a deal is highly likely to be B.S. If there was a deal and you were in a position to know about it (e.g., if you are Annie's tax accountant), you wouldn't say anything.

[JoeTable]

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... I'm sure that Phil would not want to tarnish his bad boy image by admitting to making a deal with Annie.

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since when is Helmuth a bad boy? A whine boy maybe, but he's not particularly bad.

[JoeTable]

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Obviously, this is not the kind of place to say where I heard this info, and I realize that this hurts my credibility. Like many of these types of things, you hear them through the grapevine. Of course, you don't have to believe me, and I certainly understand why you wouldn't believe/trust me. I just know that my grapevine is shorter and more authoritative than most.

Could I be wrong? Possibly. I think my information is accurate. To the one poster who cited Annie's presence on this site as the defining reason why there wasn't a deal struck....I ask this: what else is she going to say?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is one of the most boring arguments I've ever read. I feel dumber now.