nyc poker room in brooklyn - raided? [Archive]

freekobe

02-07-2005, 05:06 PM

I have a few friends who frequent these clubs and one who is extremely reliable told me. I wouldn't bet my life on it, but I feel confident that it happened.

I had always thought the police would only go after the owners, but perhaps they're sending a message. I didn't hear anything beyond this. It will definitely affect my visits to NYC clubs. I only recently started going, but the overall shadiness and this recent event make the comfort of my own home that much more attractive.

Was curious to see if anyone else had heard anything...

TakeMeToTheRiver

02-07-2005, 05:16 PM

it doesn't ring true. Gambling is not a crime in New York. Operating and promoting a gambling establishment is.... That is my understanding from reading the law and from everything I have ever heard.

edit -- there were the regular arrests of bookies on Super Bowl sunday... that happens every year it seems... maybe that is what he is talking about.

Derek in NYC

02-07-2005, 05:21 PM

I have not heard this rumor, however the part about the charges being filed against the players, is suspect. Under NY law, it is illegal to "profit from or advance gambling activity." In both cases, a person profits or advances gambling activity when that person's involvement is "other than as a player." In other words, it is not illegal to gamble, but it is illegal to organize or profit from gambling activity. See NY Penal Code 225.00. Note that the definition of "profit from gambling activity" has been very broadly construed, and even dealers may be subject to arrest for their participation in gambling activity because of the salary and tokes they receive. However, players should not be subject to arrest. YMMV... as they say, you may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride.

sfer

02-07-2005, 06:26 PM

I've heard the rumor from a reliable source and I believe it. The story I heard was that it was an aggressively advertising Brooklyn club.

TakeMeToTheRiver

02-07-2005, 06:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I've heard the rumor from a reliable source and I believe it. The story I heard was that it was an aggressively advertising Brooklyn club.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not disputing the raid part -- disputing the part about players being charged. Putting on my lawyer hat, the statute says:

[ QUOTE ]
Sec. 225.05 Promoting gambling in the second degree.

A person is guilty of promoting gambling in the second degree when he knowingly advances or profits from unlawful gambling activity. Promoting gambling in the second degree is a class A misdemeanor.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does it mean to advance gambling activity?

[ QUOTE ]
A person "advances gambling activity" when, acting other than as a player, he engages in conduct which materially aids any form of gambling activity.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does it mean to profit from gambling activity?

[ QUOTE ]
A person "profits from gambling activity" when, other than as a player, he accepts or receives money or other property pursuant to an agreement or understanding with any person whereby he participates or is to participate in the proceeds of gambling activity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly, a dealer advances and profits from gambling activity. As defined in the law, a player does not advance or profit from gambling activity and cannot be charged.

sfer

02-07-2005, 06:59 PM

My bad. I heard nothing about the players, just that the joint was raided.

Derek in NYC

02-07-2005, 07:00 PM

Agreed, counsellor.

Derek in NYC

02-07-2005, 07:01 PM

Was this BPC?

IgorSmiles

02-07-2005, 07:07 PM

I found this at poker.meetup.com:

"The BPC was raided by last night and the members in attendance were issued summonses for an
arcane violation known as "loitering for the purpose of gambling". It looks like it will be closed for good.
Those cited should plead not guilty as the law is 1) unconstitutional because gambling itself is not illegal in new york and merely loitering anywhere cannot be a crime because it would violate the 1st amendment. (at least two New York courts have suggested this and some commentators have said this "loitering for the purpose of gambling" law is unconstitutional and 2) notwistanding, poker is not gambling, instead it is a game of skill akin to bridge thus not covered under the law.
These are legitamite defenses and are worth making as it is only a violation anyways and the most you have to lose is a small fine.

The owner of the club will probably face different , more serious, charges and only the second, more challenging, defense will apply."

freekobe

02-07-2005, 07:20 PM

I did some further research to confirm and it appears that the posted legal research is correct. I couldn't find any NYC specific law that would govern this, so the state law would control.

Perhaps the dealers/owners got misdemeanors. Again, I am only very confident of the raid. As to who got the misdemeanors, I am less confident, though I will try to find out.

spadeclub99

02-07-2005, 07:28 PM

Is this because of DA Hynes upcoming re-election battle, he faces a tough challenge in the Dem primary for Kings County D.A. Yesterday Hynes said he thinks sports betting should be legalized in NY as he was announcing the arrest of numerous sports betting operators.
daily news (http://www.nydailynews.com/02-07-2005/news/politics/story/278468p-238570c.html)

bobbyi

02-07-2005, 07:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
However, players should not be subject to arrest. YMMV... as they say, you may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride.

[/ QUOTE ]
I have a friend who was in the diamond club when it got raided (f*** you, giuliani) and if I recall correctly, he said that they checked ID's from all of the players there and wrote down their info, but then nothing after happened with that. Certainly no charges were pressed against the players. I would presume that they wanted names and addresses of players to try to get them to testify in the case agaisnt the owners, but who knows.

TakeMeToTheRiver

02-07-2005, 07:40 PM

loitering for the purpose of gambling... that is interesting... I looked it up...

[ QUOTE ]
A person is guilty of loitering when he:
1. Loiters, remains or wanders about in a public place for the purpose
of begging; or
2. Loiters or remains in a public place for the purpose of gambling
with cards, dice or other gambling paraphernalia; or ...
[a bunch of other unrelated stuff here]

[/ QUOTE ]

Loitering is a violation -- like a parking ticket -- so there is no criminal record, potential jail time, etc. Just a fine.

But is BPC a public place if it is a private club?
hmmm...

Anyway, I had never heard of anyone being ticketed for that in New York before now... very interesting... back to the books.

By the way, the Brooklyn D.A. believes that sports betting should be legal and taxed. I don't know if he ever gave his opinion on poker...

Luv2DriveTT

02-07-2005, 08:05 PM

I know numerous people who were at the Mayfair when it was raided (more than once aparently). They do a background check on every player, and they take any player who has a criminal warrent or record (as well as those not carrying ID) downtown for processing, everyone else can go home. Money on the table is confiscated, but the playre a,owed to redeem their chips (under the watchful eye of the NYPD.

My fear is related to the IRS. Since many of the clubs keep records of the players IDs, what is the potential for damage even if the player was not caught in the raid?

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

Derek in NYC

02-07-2005, 08:32 PM

I would imagine that regardless of registration information about players, no club keeps records on its players' relative wins and losses. So while proof of your membership in a club might support the inference that you gambled, it would not support the inference that you won money that you were obligated to report on your tax returns. Additionally, it would be extremely unusual for the local DA to deliberately involve a federal agency in a local investigation, unless there were clear evidence that a federal law had been broken. Thus, if the gambling establishment had organized crime ties, a federal offshoot investigation would be quite possible. But absent evidence of this or similar federal interests, I do not believe there is reason to worry.

Voltron87

02-07-2005, 09:08 PM

this rumor is true, I don't know about the charges, but BPC was ridiculously aggressive in its ads and they never checked ID (apparently). I know the NYPC is pretty aggressive on ads (craigslist, some other site), the owners are aware of that, and they might be next if they're not careful.

TheJunkyardGod

02-07-2005, 09:44 PM

How often do things like this happen? I might just stick to AC (i'm about halfway between both cities.

Luv2DriveTT

02-07-2005, 10:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is this because of DA Hynes upcoming re-election battle, he faces a tough challenge in the Dem primary for Kings County D.A. Yesterday Hynes said he thinks sports betting should be legalized in NY as he was announcing the arrest of numerous sports betting operators.
daily news (http://www.nydailynews.com/02-07-2005/news/politics/story/278468p-238570c.html)

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there a possibility that they were also running a sports pool from BPC?

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

pokerny

02-07-2005, 11:55 PM

NYTIMES ARTICLE

12 Are Arrested in Gambling Operation

Published: February 7, 2005

Twelve people were arrested Saturday in an investigation of illegal gambling operations, including Super Bowl wagering, that brought in more than $100 million a year, the authorities said yesterday.

The arrests, part of an investigation known as Kings Flush, were made in a series of raids of betting locations, including private homes and at least one social club - in Manhattan, Queens, Staten Island and Brooklyn.

The arrests were announced by the Brooklyn district attorney, Charles J. Hynes; the Staten Island district attorney, Daniel M. Donovan; and Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly.

Two of the defendants are charged with promoting gambling in the second degree, a misdemeanor, which is punishable by up to a year in prison, the authorities said.

The others were charged with promoting gambling in the first degree, a felony that is punishable by up to four years in prison.

el kang

02-07-2005, 11:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is there a possibility that they were also running a sports pool from BPC?

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
No. There are TVs and you could observe people making phone calls from their cell phones to bookies. But, not even a Superbowl pool, like some other poker rooms.

BPC is a private, membership based club, with a membership fee.

DrPublo

02-08-2005, 12:03 AM

But, not even a Superbowl pool, like some other poker rooms.

That's not true. I was there about 2 weeks ago and I observed some of the dealers/regulars buying squares in a superbowl points grid. Not sure of the stakes or house cut.

The Doc

baiter

02-08-2005, 02:02 AM

wow - is it really true? I actually felt pretty safe in that place.

Can anyone verify the current status (open/closed) and what's going to happen?

afish

02-08-2005, 08:46 AM

Not sure why folks are so surprised. The Mayfair and Diamond Clubs were shut down only a few years ago (although it was before the poker boom, so the 22-year-olds might not remember). People have again started openly talking about and promoting these clearly illegal clubs on this and other boards. This really was inevitable.

Rams_Law

02-08-2005, 09:17 AM

ditto - n/m

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure why folks are so surprised. The Mayfair and Diamond Clubs were shut down only a few years ago (although it was before the poker boom, so the 22-year-olds might not remember). People have again started openly talking about and promoting these clearly illegal clubs on this and other boards. This really was inevitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Evan

02-08-2005, 09:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]

BPC is a private, membership based club, with a membership fee.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is that reffering to the time charge or some other fee? If it was another fee than you are wrong.

RollaJ

02-08-2005, 10:03 AM

Thats rather interesting. I guess the key is not to advertise as PS will be open 3 years in April

Derek in NYC

02-08-2005, 11:26 AM

The NYTimes article seems to suggest that DA Hynes timed the busts simply to increase his profile, rather than as part of a broader investigation about illegal gambling activities in the city. If this is true, the BPC bust will have little effect beyond the felony charges brought against those involved.

Other clubs should be aware, however, that the defense attorneys for those arrested at BPC will be exploring all avenues for lenient treatment including cooperation with ongoing police investigations. Counsel should advise their clients that if the police/DA are interested in continuing the investigation, they might want to cooperate in exchange for lesser charges, dropped charges, etc.

Other clubs in town should, at least for a while, keep this in mind when admitting newcomers, speaking on the telephone, or associating with BPC organizers (if that happens). Believe it or not, cooperating witnesses really do things like "wearing wires" etc.

Luv2DriveTT

02-08-2005, 11:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Thats rather interesting. I guess the key is not to advertise as PS will be open 3 years in April

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunatly some people advertise for PS, which I find absolutly foul. Like that idiot with the NYC club listing website.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

TakeMeToTheRiver

02-08-2005, 12:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thats rather interesting. I guess the key is not to advertise as PS will be open 3 years in April

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunatly some people advertise for PS, which I find absolutly foul. Like that idiot with the NYC club listing website.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

PS's address and contact info have been removed from that site. Interestingly, BPC's address was removed at some point prior to this weekend's events as well -- I printed the list on Feb. 3 and neither address is there.