Screw collusion...THIS is the problem online....

[touchfaith]

Stumbled across this in that stupid 'party is racist' thread (grow up)...

But it brings me to another point....

I think that sites should do something to block/eliminate these stat tracker things.

If you are too stupid to keep notes on your own or track someones play style...DONT PLAY POKER.

These things are a joke and are the number one reason I play at multiple sites under multiple names.

Have fun at a B&M without your little stat trackers.

Example: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/bdfaulkn/www/kkk.JPG

[wbrumfiel]

You aren't going to get too far on these forums hating on PT and PV or GT+. That is how most of these people make thier money and if its available I don't see why you wouldn't use it. Thats like telling someone that offered you the score of the superbowl in advance that you just didn't feel it was right to be making money like that.

[moondogg]

As noble as it is to develop skills without the help of such utilities, you must consider the long-range profitability. Sure, I'd love to have the memory and attention skills necessary to do all of it without PokerTracker/PlayerView/etc, but I'd rather have a lot of money.

Given that I have a full-time job and play poker part-time, I'll never make as much in a B&M cardroom as I would 6-tabling online with stat tools.

[ QUOTE ]
If you are too stupid to keep notes on your own or track someones play style...DONT PLAY POKER.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't like this aspect of online poker, NOT PLAY ONLINE POKER.

If you don't like computer tools, used by yourself or anyone else, stick to B&M.

[touchfaith]

Obvious responses.

Glad I play Omaha. It's like having Mozilla when all the idiot virus writers are targeting IE.

[MikeyObviously]

Definatly awesome to have another game in your pocket.

The playerview is for people who multi-table...it is a different kind of "read"

[moondogg]

[ QUOTE ]
Obvious responses.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a reason those responses are obvious. What responses were you expecting?

[ QUOTE ]

Glad I play Omaha. It's like having Mozilla when all the idiot virus writers are targeting IE.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, it has nothing to do with defending yourself against malicious criminal acts. It's more like insisting to use a pencil and paper when everyone else is using computers.

[touchfaith]

Justify it any way you want, the bottom line is that it is information that you where either a) too lazy to gather, or b) too stupid to gather.

[BottlesOf]

Congrats, you're the retard of the day!

[Radio]

LMAO at this thread, Some people really are idiots, Its a DOG eat DOG world out their, Do what ever you have to do to win. Because when you think your ****ing then their ****ing you!

[touchfaith]

Remember that when someone writes some code that makes your cards face-up to them...

Hey, all's fair with a computer right??

[moondogg]

You don't actually use the Notes feature offered by the poker sites, do you? If so, you are part of the problem. Wouldn't a "real" poker player would rely only on their memory and hand-written notes taken while away from the table?

[ QUOTE ]
Justify it any way you want, the bottom line is that it is information that you where either a) too lazy to gather, or b) too stupid to gather.

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem to be under the misguided impression that it would be a worthwhile use of time.

[rdu $teve]

You say that people should rely, strictly on their memory, to assist with their player reads. This is fairly easy when playing in B&M against 9 opponents, 1 hand at a time, where you might see 20 players in 8 hours. Try this multi-tabling, making decisions much faster, with 50-60 opponents at a time, where you see up to 1000 opponents a day. It's a different venue with different methods of playing the same game.

[rdu $teve]

This code would require hacking into the pokersite's software and getting information that is not available to the other players. This would obviously be cheating.

PT works off the hand histories which are available to everyone, even players not playing. If you dont like this, don't play on the sites that offer hand histories. Or just change your name every day.

[Synergistic Explosions]

I agree with thinman.

Anyone who plays without PT should only play at sites that don't support it's use. To play at a site that supports it, where many players use it, without having it yourself is ignorant.

Therefore, let the PT users play themselves. The non PT users need to play where it's not supported.

[touchfaith]

How is the information getting on to the Party screen? I'm sure "none" of party's code was used/modified to make that happen.

[SlantNGo]

Are you stupid or ignorant? It's an overlay. The numbers appear "over top", not on Party's software. It is all easily done without any knowledge of or modifications to the PartyPoker client code.

[Chadt74]

I think this is my first post on the 2+2 boards and I wanted to chime in on this issue...

"Thats like telling someone that offered you the score of the superbowl in advance that you just didn't feel it was right to be making money like that"

That is just incorrect. These programs only give you HISTORICAL data. People can use that information to predict the future, but there is no way to tell what is going to happen? A guy that missed his flush with AKs and a 75% win percentage on show downs might throw out a bluff bet on the river if there is a ragged board, and someone with low pre folp raise might try a blind steal from UTG+1 or 2? that does not mean they have AA or KK?

Since these programs do not tell you what their hole cards are or the cards to come are I think people tend to over emphasize the importance. Yes they help, but in the end understanding the game and how to play will give you more of an edge (IMHO).

Like the other poster said, it is no different than using a paper and pencil now it is just a computer. Think of this :

No PT or HUD display
I have two computers
1)playing poker
2)I enter into a database every hand I see people play and what they raise with and when
I query that 2nd computer before calling a raise or some other action

Am I cheating in the second scenario or just working harder than the other guys to get an edge?

To me this is a fine line, but again I am just using historical data to support my decisions and sometimes I go against what the numbers tell me because of a read or that ‘gut’ feel. I can’t tell you how many times I have not looked at numbers when making a decision, it is more based on past experience with the player, and other table factors.

Long winded but that is my take…

[rivered]

I use poker tracker and playerview but I think playerview goes to far and I rather it wasn't there and I think it's 100% a really bad thing for poker. It makes it way too easy for middle of the road, lazy players. The second thing is what's next? A stats program that will compute the correct play for you based on number of players, the flop, etc can't be far behind. It may not make bad players great but it may make average players a lot better, which, despite what a lot of people think, is the majority of the players sitting at a table.

[ranchguy]

Dumb question here. Are the stats shown from pokertracker?

[SlantNGo]

That would be real-time and against the poker site's TOS. PlayerView is based on PokerTracker, which imports hands AFTER they've completed.

[ QUOTE ]
A stats program that will compute the correct play for you based on number of players, the flop, etc can't be far behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

[HRFats]

This program exists. I'm not ging to mention the program name but it "integrates" with PP and reads your hand plus the community cards as they are shown. It then calcs all the odds and outs. I heard it was illegal to use on the sites, though.

[touchfaith]

[ QUOTE ]
That would be real-time and against the poker site's TOS. PlayerView is based on PokerTracker, which imports hands AFTER they've completed.

[ QUOTE ]
A stats program that will compute the correct play for you based on number of players, the flop, etc can't be far behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]


That's funny, I don't see it anywhere in the Terms...maybe you wouldn't like 'bot like play' against you and that's why you are opposed?

Hey, it's all fair on the computer right????

Dog eat dog world remember????

[TGoldman]

Yes, this almost as bad as the so called "check-raise" that is another major problem with poker!!!11

[SlantNGo]

Read them more carefully.

[ QUOTE ]
That's funny, I don't see it anywhere in the Terms...

[/ QUOTE ]

[SlantNGo]

Dude totally! Whoever invented the check-raise should be shot in the head!

[touchfaith]

[ QUOTE ]
Read them more carefully.

[ QUOTE ]
That's funny, I don't see it anywhere in the Terms...

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]


Why don't you point it out to me? Or does Pokertracker not do that for you?

[AngryCola]

Guess what?

You're completely wrong!

It has little to nothing to do with being too lazy to keep notes.

I seriosuly doubt even you, with your superiority complex, could keep such detailed notes about players.

Also, it's all about the multi-tabling. If you really think it's just so easy to keep tracking of the thousands of players on PP, you're an idiot.
These HUDs combined with PT are the tools of the trade for most internet pros.

I'm sorry you don't like it, but it's not changing anytime soon. You aren't going to get any support on this one.

Actually, I'm not sorry you don't like it.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, this almost as bad as the so called "check-raise" that is another major problem with poker!!!11

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha!

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Read them more carefully.

[ QUOTE ]
That's funny, I don't see it anywhere in the Terms...

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]


Why don't you point it out to me? Or does Pokertracker not do that for you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm playing the world's smallest violin for you.

[touchfaith]

All in all, it's fairly ammusing watching you people defend something that you could obviously not make a dime without.

So many "Internet Pro's"

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Obvious responses.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a reason those responses are obvious. What responses were you expecting?

[ QUOTE ]

Glad I play Omaha. It's like having Mozilla when all the idiot virus writers are targeting IE.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, it has nothing to do with defending yourself against malicious criminal acts. It's more like insisting to use a pencil and paper when everyone else is using computers.

[/ QUOTE ]

no it isnt. If "everyone else" was using it then I don't think it is such a big deal. The fact is though that only a very small fraction of people know it even exists/know that people are using their past play against them.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
All in all, it's fairly ammusing watching you people defend something that you could obviously not make a dime without.

So many "Internet Pro's"

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not true either.

It's funny when you come in here with these blanket statements which aren't true and have no basis at all.
It's also funny that you can't spell.

It's easy to say these things when you are feeling pissy, but you can't actually back it up with reason and logic.

[jojobinks]

thinman is right. in the old days, they didn't need no computers. they remembered. and they drove all 'round texas, taking peoples' money. and they didn't need notes at all. they'd just move all in, and put the other guy to the test for all his chips.

now that's real poker, not these fancy computer type thingys. you guys probably let the computer tell you what time it is too, right?

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
big deal. The fact is though that only a very small fraction of people know it even exists/know that people are using their past play against them.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very true.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you stupid or ignorant?

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously both.

[touchfaith]

So many narrow minds, but of course, nobody expected less.

It's not about technology, it's not about memory, it's not about multi-tabling.

It IS about a level playing field.

If this is so "fair", why is it not biult in to the poker software?

Name ONE online poker site that *provides* this information as part of their program.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]

So many narrow minds, but of course, nobody expected less.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then don't post here.

It's obvious to everyone else that you are the one who is ignorant and narrow minded.

[ QUOTE ]
It's not about technology, it's not about memory, it's not about multi-tabling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, it's about all of those things.
You're still wrong.

[touchfaith]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

So many narrow minds, but of course, nobody expected less.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then don't post here.

It's obvious to everyone else that you are the one who is ignorant and narrow minded.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, you've added so much to this thread...I should do a complete 180 on this topic now huh?

Chadt74...thanks for the reply

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, you've added so much to this thread...I should do a complete 180 on this topic now huh?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say that.

I said you should not post if you think we are all idiots.
Since you don't expect intelligent replies (see: replies which don't agree with you), why post here at all?

Ohhh, I know, to whine!
Silly me.

I suggest you just don't post.
That would solve your problem.

[moondogg]

[ QUOTE ]
no it isnt. If "everyone else" was using it then I don't think it is such a big deal. The fact is though that only a very small fraction of people know it even exists/know that people are using their past play against them.

[/ QUOTE ]

And that lack of knowledge is voluntary ignorance. PT/PV/GT+ is no secret. Their refusal to make an attempt to learn more about playing poker online is not my problem.

They also don't read books, study the game, discuss hands, look for leaks to plug, etc. Again, not my problem.

[touchfaith]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wow, you've added so much to this thread...I should do a complete 180 on this topic now huh?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say that.

I said you should not post if you think we are all idiots.
Since you don't expect intelligent replies (see: replies which don't agree with you), why post here at all?

Ohhh, I know, to whine!
Silly me.

I suggest you just don't post.
That would solve your problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shouldn't you be getting a ride to school from your mom right about now?

[HRFats]

The information IS provided by the sitesin "raw" form. The program simply takes the information that PP loads onto my hard drive and formats it in an easy to use fashion. It turns data into information...

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]


Shouldn't you be getting a ride to school from your mom right about now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all clever.

Try harder next time.

[moondogg]

Level playing field? We're talking about poker, right? Since when do you want your opponents to be less ignorant? As long as their is no cheating which violates the T&C of the site, who gives a damn if it is "fair" to the losers?

Almost every site provides the information. Most people choose not to do anything useful with it.

[mcozzy1]

I don't think this is as simple an issue as most people are making it out to be. The same argument that most people are using to support the use of pokertracker can also be used to support the use of bots ("I wouldn't make as much money if I didn't use stat tools", "It's a dog-eat-dog world, do whatever you have to in order to win", etc.

I guess the major distinction is that bot use is against the TOS agreement. I'd be willing to bet that if using PT was against the TOS, there would still be a lot of people doing it though. Even though I use (and enjoy) pokertracker, I'd like to see Party discourage the use of stat tracking tools. I think internet poker should try to emulate B&M rooms as much as possible.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
I think internet poker should try to emulate B&M rooms as much as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

By that standard, multi-tabling wouldn't be allowed.

By the way, I agree with you about the rules.
If they made it against the rules, I'd think it was silly, but I would still call anyone who used the software a cheater.

But compairing PT/PV to bots is just silly.
Bots play the game FOR you.
PV/PT only accumulate and manage data.

[lorinda]

Information sent to an outside program is not permitted

From party T+C.

Lori

[Sephus]

hmm thin man doesn't like PT. i think i'd better stop using it and cut my winrate by 25-30% so he'll think i'm a "real" poker player.

[touchfaith]

[ QUOTE ]
The information IS provided by the sitesin "raw" form. The program simply takes the information that PP loads onto my hard drive and formats it in an easy to use fashion. It turns data into information...

[/ QUOTE ]


I knew I'd get another intelligent response eventually.

See, this makes a little sense.

But, I would still have a problem with the information being 'overlayed' onto the poker window, under the cooresponding name.

It is not a crime to have the information, but to modify or alter the poker window in ANY way shape or form is a problem for me.

Chad gave the example:

[ QUOTE ]
No PT or HUD display
I have two computers
1)playing poker
2)I enter into a database every hand I see people play and what they raise with and when
I query that 2nd computer before calling a raise or some other action

[/ QUOTE ]

And no...I would have absolutely no problem with a scenero like this.

And I would actually have no problem with the current scenero, as long as it was not overlayed on the poker screen.

If you can manage looking up and obtaining the information (already stored in your PC, but now formatted by a SEPARATE app) AND multi-table....more power to you.

But most...ok, probably none of you could and therefore, it is an unfair advantage.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
Stumbled across this in that stupid 'party is racist' thread (grow up)...

But it brings me to another point....

I think that sites should do something to block/eliminate these stat tracker things.

If you are too stupid to keep notes on your own or track someones play style...DONT PLAY POKER.

These things are a joke and are the number one reason I play at multiple sites under multiple names.

Have fun at a B&M without your little stat trackers.



[/ QUOTE ]

Blah blah blah.

You want a "level" playing field. Then you'd better ban all books, all magazines, all websites, all forums, all online notes, all coaches, all player-to-player discussions/analysis, all starting hand charts, all odds charts, etc.

In fact, you'd better ban math entirely because it's not fair that I know how to use math to figure out the odds of hitting a two-outer on the turn and my opponent doesn't.

BTW...


http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/sucks11.jpg

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
And I would actually have no problem with the current scenero, as long as it was not overlayed on the poker screen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

PT has the gametime window which shows you the same sort of stats in a seperate window.

So is that okay?
If so, why does it matter if I have to click one screen over to get the information? That little effort makes all the difference to you?

[ QUOTE ]
I knew I'd get another intelligent response eventually.

[/ QUOTE ]

People tried to tell you the same things this guy did, but you didn't listen.

[touchfaith]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And I would actually have no problem with the current scenero, as long as it was not overlayed on the poker screen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

PT has the gametime window which shows you the same sort of stats in a seperate windows.

So is that okay?
If so, why does it matter if I have to click one screen over to get the information? That little effort makes all the difference to you?

[ QUOTE ]
I knew I'd get another intelligent response eventually.

[/ QUOTE ]

People tried to tell you the same things this guy did, but you didn't listen.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you really think looking through a different app, with most likely thousands of entries, for each table, as people come in and out, is the same as having it right under their name...

You are dumber then me.

[lorinda]

FWIW, my previous post was merely pointing out the T+C, the fact is that you can only have a level playing field by allowing such things, as there is no way of stopping them.

Lori

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
The information IS provided by the sitesin "raw" form. The program simply takes the information that PP loads onto my hard drive and formats it in an easy to use fashion. It turns data into information...

[/ QUOTE ]

...that most everyone doesn't have.

[SlantNGo]

You do realize that there is a Gametime window in Pokertracker that does the exact same thing as the overlays but shows it in a different window, right? There's no "searching through thousands of entries" in a DB.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
If you really think looking through a different app, with most likely thousands of entries, for each table, as people come in and out, is the same as having it right under their name...

You are dumber then me.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not what I said.

The gametime window is obviously something you don't "get".

It shows you the same information as PV for all the players AT YOUR TABLE.

You click the gametime window, it opens a little mock table which shows all the people you are sitting with and their stats.

I will forgive your ignorance on this matter, but I still ask you, what's the difference?

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The information IS provided by the sitesin "raw" form. The program simply takes the information that PP loads onto my hard drive and formats it in an easy to use fashion. It turns data into information...

[/ QUOTE ]

...that most everyone doesn't have.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, everyone DOES have it, they just choose not to use it.

Secondly, read this post:
Jeff A (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1687945&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&vc=1)

[HRFats]

So are you saying it's not the fact that people are using the data that PP send to our hard drives but the method in which they are displaying it?? I can't figure out why the overlay is causing you concern. If PP send me the data and I do nothing to ALTER the data and only sort and compile the data what difference does it make how it is displayed? The source of the data is not compromised and is available to all players.

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The information IS provided by the sitesin "raw" form. The program simply takes the information that PP loads onto my hard drive and formats it in an easy to use fashion. It turns data into information...

[/ QUOTE ]

...that most everyone doesn't have.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, everyone DOES have it, they just choose not to use it.

Secondly, read this post:
Jeff A (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1687945&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&vc=1)

[/ QUOTE ]

that post does not address the issue at all. It is completely different to learn how to play a game through books and discussion than it is to take information that would not be usable the way pokertracker makes it and to buy a program to filter thousands of hands and give you real-time information on your opponents.

I said this in another thread a couple weeks ago, but what do you think the reaction of all the fishies would be if party put out a mass email telling them that people are using this program against them without their knowledge.

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
no it isnt. If "everyone else" was using it then I don't think it is such a big deal. The fact is though that only a very small fraction of people know it even exists/know that people are using their past play against them.

[/ QUOTE ]

And that lack of knowledge is voluntary ignorance. PT/PV/GT+ is no secret. Their refusal to make an attempt to learn more about playing poker online is not my problem.

They also don't read books, study the game, discuss hands, look for leaks to plug, etc. Again, not my problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

if it was part of the software like the notes feature and was not being used by someone I would consider it "no secret". I would guess it is a secret to about 99% of the people playing.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
I said this in another thread a couple weeks ago, but what do you think the reaction of all the fishies would be if party put out a mass email telling them that people are using this program against them without their knowledge.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thankfully, party is not in the habit of distributing fish information which would make their games better.

Again, all of this info. can be used by anyone.

[HRFats]

People are simply using the data that PP send to them. The data is available to everyone. Most choose to ignore it or don't know how to use it. Those players need to do a little learning and studying. But they choose to play before learning what information is available to them.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
I would guess it is a secret to about 99% of the people playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

So is the fact that you can know the hand of someone who mucks after calling a bet on the river.

Party doesn't announce that fact to anyone, AND it's a part of their software.

[golFUR]

I can see the logic you used in formulating your view. It isn't so much 'wrong', as other posters claim, as it is not helpful.

Consider an old football player exclaiming, after the Super Bowl, "Well, it was a good game but I wouldn't call it football. Did you see all them pads and helmets?! Football players don't wear helmets!"

They do now...

Sure, stat trackers might violate one 'spirit' of the game, but the main spirit is still in tact - Earn Money. And as you have noted already, you can still play on a level playing field at a B&M.

Just consider where you draw the lines. If I invest a year of my life learning to use my mind and memory in ways nobody else does?... - What about savants who need no special training? Photographic memory or the like - Does a person who learns short hand have an advantage over someone who just takes notes in long hand?

You go to the trouble of playing on multiple sites under multiple aliases to avoid being tracked. You keep notes on your own but refuse to use software that will keep better notes... So, you appreciate notes and feel they are valid, you just don't appreciate people who use software to build their notes. Would it be 'fair' if I wrote down all the hands and results in my own special short hand, then after the game I hand wrote all sorts of summaries and graphs? which I'd then use in my next session of course...

I'm restating the same thing a few different ways. What it comes down to is, online poker is different than live poker and a smart players acknowledges that and works with it. Whether I compile my notes by hand or by software, the result is the same. It is the results that count.

I take my car to a mechanic, my neighbor works on his own car. The result is we both can drive our cars. Perhaps his is more in 'spirit' with car ownership, big friggin deal, I can still drive.

[golFUR]

That nobody has placed it directly in front of you does not mean they are keeping it a secret from you. Just because 99% of the people playing have not walked through the Games section at Barnes & Noble and seen the books on poker strategy does not mean the library is being kept secret.

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I said this in another thread a couple weeks ago, but what do you think the reaction of all the fishies would be if party put out a mass email telling them that people are using this program against them without their knowledge.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thankfully, party is not in the habit of distributing fish information which would make their games better.

Again, all of this info. can be used by anyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

it has nothing to do with making the fish's game better. It has to do with you knowing how bad they are and their tendancies when they don't know yours. If they knew yours and ignored it, then so be it.
Yes, the info can be used by anyone. But do they know that info even exists on their hard drive? If they did, do they know that PT exists? If they did, should they be forced to shell out for it just to keep pace? (you do have to pay for the software right?) If they got it and saw how bad their play is, would they keep playing? stop playing? learn how not to play fishy anymore?
The ones that know about it and keep playing deserve to be eaten alive, but as to everyone else they are put at an unknowing and unfair disadvantage that goes beyone their poor play.

[AngryCola]

*sigh*

You're right, all the fish should be informed immediately.

I'll leave you in charge of that.

[mmbt0ne]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
I said this in another thread a couple weeks ago, but what do you think the reaction of all the fishies would be if party put out a mass email telling them that people are using this program against them without their knowledge.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it would probably be great for PT Pat's bankroll.

The fish know about poker books, but that doesn't seem to stop them from going into games unprepared. I think you overestimate how much the fish care. Many of them already think that bots infest the games (which, from the way you worded you last statement is what you seem to want them to think), but play anyway because that's what they want to do. People will play poker, people will lose at poker, and people will find something to blame it on. And you know what, they'll come right back anyway.

[Rudbaeck]

[ QUOTE ]
How is the information getting on to the Party screen? I'm sure "none" of party's code was used/modified to make that happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know how it gets on screen, and it doesn't require the modification of any code in the party client. Simply put a transparent sheet is put over the poker window and these stats are then put on the sheet.

I have no problems winning live, but online I use the tools provide to me. I'm no luddite. And it's not like this allows me to bounce from a small loser to a 3BB/100hands winner. I estimate the worth of this HUD at about 0.5BB/100 for me. So if I had it in a casino I'd win another big bet every 6 hours.

Yes, another bet every 6 hours is obviously going to add up to a rather substantial amount, but no one who is otherwise a loser at poker will become good enough to make a living on it merely by using a tool like this.

Several posters on here have noted that for them having a HUD made no difference, what they made in better reads they lost on fancy play syndrome.

[BottlesOf]

Yes.

[BottlesOf]

[ QUOTE ]
A stats program that will compute the correct play for you based on number of players, the flop, etc can't be far behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

False. I'll let others elaborate.

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
That nobody has placed it directly in front of you does not mean they are keeping it a secret from you. Just because 99% of the people playing have not walked through the Games section at Barnes &amp; Noble and seen the books on poker strategy does not mean the library is being kept secret.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not see how the comparison to reading a poker book is relevant even though that is one of the most common replies whenever use of PT is questioned.

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I said this in another thread a couple weeks ago, but what do you think the reaction of all the fishies would be if party put out a mass email telling them that people are using this program against them without their knowledge.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it would probably be great for PT Pat's bankroll.

The fish know about poker books, but that doesn't seem to stop them from going into games unprepared. I think you overestimate how much the fish care. Many of them already think that bots infest the games (which, from the way you worded you last statement is what you seem to want them to think), but play anyway because that's what they want to do. People will play poker, people will lose at poker, and people will find something to blame it on. And you know what, they'll come right back anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

A poker book gives you information on the macro level (what hands you should play, when in general to raise/fold, figuring out odds, etc.). That is entirely different from a program that tells you on a micro level about how an individual person usually plays a hand, etc.

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
I can see the logic you used in formulating your view. It isn't so much 'wrong', as other posters claim, as it is not helpful.

Consider an old football player exclaiming, after the Super Bowl, "Well, it was a good game but I wouldn't call it football. Did you see all them pads and helmets?! Football players don't wear helmets!"

They do now...

Sure, stat trackers might violate one 'spirit' of the game, but the main spirit is still in tact - Earn Money. And as you have noted already, you can still play on a level playing field at a B&amp;M.

Just consider where you draw the lines. If I invest a year of my life learning to use my mind and memory in ways nobody else does?... - What about savants who need no special training? Photographic memory or the like - Does a person who learns short hand have an advantage over someone who just takes notes in long hand?

You go to the trouble of playing on multiple sites under multiple aliases to avoid being tracked. You keep notes on your own but refuse to use software that will keep better notes... So, you appreciate notes and feel they are valid, you just don't appreciate people who use software to build their notes. Would it be 'fair' if I wrote down all the hands and results in my own special short hand, then after the game I hand wrote all sorts of summaries and graphs? which I'd then use in my next session of course...

I'm restating the same thing a few different ways. What it comes down to is, online poker is different than live poker and a smart players acknowledges that and works with it. Whether I compile my notes by hand or by software, the result is the same. It is the results that count.

I take my car to a mechanic, my neighbor works on his own car. The result is we both can drive our cars. Perhaps his is more in 'spirit' with car ownership, big friggin deal, I can still drive.

[/ QUOTE ]

you could not keep all of the stats the PT gives you for every hand for every player you've played against and find that data instantly when new players join the game. You would be too busy compiling all of the data to ever play.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
That is entirely different

[/ QUOTE ]

Not in my own, and many others, opinion.

You are allowed to have your own opinion, of course.

Btw, you never commented on my statement about PP hand histories showing mucked hands. Most players on Party don't know about that, but I don't see you getting all in a huff about that issue.

Why not?

[GuruCane]

I think your mechanic analogy is a little off on this one.

I think of it as baseball circa 1998: Andro was not yet banned by baseball but not everyone used it. Mark McGwire used andro and set a homerun record. Many people look down on the record b/c of Mark's use of andro.

The stats can be viewed in the same way. Not illegal but give an advantage that "purists" might frown upon. PT and its ilk are the "andro" (not steroids) of poker. ThinMan insists that, without your "poker andro" you would turn into Brady Anderson after he quit using whatever it was he was on (ie rather average).

While it does get frustrating that I can't get my checkraises called by the guys multitabling and, no doubt, using their stats (this sucks when you have to fight the donkeys on the other end of the spectrum), I don't agree with ThinMan. Poker is about winning money. Those using the stat programs are just trying to do their best to win money. I do, however, disagree (and find it kind of laughable) that someone trying to win the old fashioned way is somehow stupid. If it's a hobby and you play b/c you enjoy winning, the stat programs may detract from what you ultimately get out of playing. Keep datamining boys. Your insights are invaluable, even if I disagree with your assumptions.

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That is entirely different

[/ QUOTE ]

Not in my own, and many others, opinion.

You are allowed to have your own opinion, of course.

Btw, you never commented on my statement about PP hand historys showing mucked hands. Most players on Party don't know about that, but I don't see you getting all in a huff about that issue.

Why not?

[/ QUOTE ]

didn't know you could. But, I don't play hold 'em and don't play on PP so I wouldnt know that. If I did play hold em on PP though and didn't know about it I would be surprised and kicking myself for not knowing about it. However, as you said, it is part of the software, not a 3rd party program that I would have no reason to know about, so tough nuts to me.

[NoChance]

This whole argument is stupid. It already IS a level playing field. There is nothing I have that someone else does not have.

How about this? We all have access to the table graphics. Some of us have removed the chairs and changed the colors. This makes the screen much easier to see and much more comfortable to look at if playing for many hours. The screen looks different than the player who does not do this. Should this not be allowed because the screen looks different? The graphics are right there for anyone to change.

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
This whole argument is stupid. It already IS a level playing field. There is nothing I have that someone else does not have.

How about this? We all have access to the table graphics. Some of us have removed the chairs and changed the colors. This makes the screen much easier to see and much more comfortable to look at if playing for many hours. The screen looks different than the player who does not do this. Should this not be allowed because the screen looks different? The graphics are right there for anyone to change.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the worst analogy I have ever seen.

[jon593]

there are so many people playing online that it would be too hard to keep track of everyone you played a hand with in your head. its not like your weekly home game where you know everyone and played with them for a while or even your local casino where you have been for a while and watched the regulars play. these stat tracking programs are great.do you think the pros dont keep notes on everyone that they play? im sure most do keep notes on all the players that they play against

[NoChance]

It's not an analogy but I guess it could be close. It's basically someone taking the time to modify something so that it makes the game easier to play. The screen is less cluttered. The colors are easier on my eyes. The screen is not so bright. It is easier to see how many people are still in the hand when multi-tabling.

I was just wondering if you thought this was also unfair.

[GuruCane]

Actually it is an analogy and doesn't depict the "unfair advantage" that folks are talking about. I don't think, however, that it is the worst analogy that I have ever heard. Ability to change graphics is not akin to the ability to sort data b/c of possession of a special program.

Is the playing field level? Only from a certain point of view. It is if you argue that everyone has access to the same info and programs and can put in enough effort. It is not if you want to argue that these items are somehow secret (I don't like this argument). Ultimately, however, the playing field is never level in poker because of intellect. It is clearly an unlevel playing field if I were to play HE against David Sklansky. However, you can't argue that this is "unfair" (ie unlevel does not equal unfair). Can't fault a guy for being smarter. At the end of the day, everyone has access to all of the tools utilized by the pro online players so it is "fair". But the playing field would not be level whether those tools were utilized by all or not.

Anyone think that my Mark McGwire analogy sucked?

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not an analogy but I guess it could be close. It's basically someone taking the time to modify something so that it makes the game easier to play. The screen is less cluttered. The colors are easier on my eyes. The screen is not so bright. It is easier to see how many people are still in the hand when multi-tabling.

I was just wondering if you thought this was also unfair.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. It doesn't affect how you play a hand against someone. I wouldnt know how to do all that and really dont care to ever know but I am not seeing anywhere close to the same problem.

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]


Anyone think that my Mark McGwire analogy sucked?

[/ QUOTE ]

Much better than the felt color one.

While sklansky is better at the game I would still consider it an unfair advantage if either one of you were using PT against the other without them knowing.

[esknights]

I agree that it is not a simple issue. A simple way for a site to avoid people using statistics is to take away hand histories. Another choice would be to eliminate data-mining. I too like PT. However, I see in the future it being in the best interest of the sites to eliminate stat trackers. Not that I support the sites interests, but I feel that will keep losing players around just a bit longer.

[Synergistic Explosions]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that it is not a simple issue. A simple way for a site to avoid people using statistics is to take away hand histories. Another choice would be to eliminate data-mining. I too like PT. However, I see in the future it being in the best interest of the sites to eliminate stat trackers. Not that I support the sites interests, but I feel that will keep losing players around just a bit longer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

The sites that don't have a problem allowing PT type of software should make this software available within the initial download free of charge for all players to use at their own discretion. That's the only way to justify others using it and keeping the playing field as even as possible for all the players.

If they silently allow a minority to have an unfair advantage over the majority, the sites become complacent partners in this activity.

The only way now for players who don't use PT to have a level playing field is to play on sites that PT doesn't support. It's silly for non-users of PT to have to play other non PT sites just to keep an even playing field.

This is a problem the PT sites need to address.

[pudley4]

PT and PlayerView are not. End of discussion.

This thread is completely worthless.

[sasubpar]

Sorry this is so long, but I really feel that the original poster and the people arguing along his line of reasoning are incorrect, and I want to point out where and why.

[ QUOTE ]
How is the information getting on to the Party screen? I'm sure "none" of party's code was used/modified to make that happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct. Information is processed by PokerTracker, then that processed data is overlayed onto the poker table by a separate application. It does not use the poker software in any real way.

[ QUOTE ]
All in all, it's fairly ammusing watching you people defend something that you could obviously not make a dime without.

So many "Internet Pro's"

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't even an argument, it's just an insult. What's worse, it has no factual basis.

[ QUOTE ]
no it isnt. If "everyone else" was using it then I don't think it is such a big deal. The fact is though that only a very small fraction of people know it even exists/know that people are using their past play against them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not see a difference between using someone's past play against them via the use of numerical statistics and doing it via note-taking and memory. Either way, I am using someone's past play against them without their knowledge, and by your logic, I am being unfair.

Secondly, not knowing that it exists has no bearing on the discussion. It is freely available to everyone with an internet connection. It is talked about at just about every poker website and forum, and it is simple to use. How does other players' knowledge factor into the equation? You have expressed disdain for the comparison of PT and books in this thread, but that comparison is used because it successfully refutes this exact argument. Very few people know that the math has been done and that there is generally a "correct" way to play poker. This information is contained in books that only some people know about and even fewer people read. Applying your line of reasoning, reading poker books is not fair.

[ QUOTE ]
So many narrow minds, but of course, nobody expected less.

It's not about technology, it's not about memory, it's not about multi-tabling.

It IS about a level playing field.

If this is so "fair", why is it not biult in to the poker software?

Name ONE online poker site that *provides* this information as part of their program.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your contention that everyone in favor of such software is "narrow-minded" is merely another ad hom that lacks any basis in reality.

Your argument about a "level playing field" is appealing to one's sense of justice and fairness, but makes little sense. The fundamental nature of the game provides a level playing field, and this fact is not changed at all by third party software. There are still fifty-two cards in the deck, there are still only four aces, and you still don't know what anyone else holds. The playing field is by definition level. Your argument is akin to a golfer complaining that the playing field is not level because his opponent is using brand new Nike clubs while he chooses to use equipment from the 1930s.

Your final argument is fallacious, you are begging the question. Just because poker software does not integrate these features into their software does not make third party software doing just that "unfair." As I have argued above, the playing field provided by the site is inherently fair, using statistical software is merely one way to play (fairly) on that level field.

[ QUOTE ]
But, I would still have a problem with the information being 'overlayed' onto the poker window, under the cooresponding name.

It is not a crime to have the information, but to modify or alter the poker window in ANY way shape or form is a problem for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is overlaying the information unfair in and of itself? If you acknowledge that having the information is fair, how can making that information easier to digest be unfair?

[ QUOTE ]
It is completely different to learn how to play a game through books and discussion than it is to take information that would not be usable the way pokertracker makes it and to buy a program to filter thousands of hands and give you real-time information on your opponents.

I said this in another thread a couple weeks ago, but what do you think the reaction of all the fishies would be if party put out a mass email telling them that people are using this program against them without their knowledge.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, the information provided by PokerTracker is not real-time information. It is 100% historical and gives no prediction or information about either (a) Your opponent's hands or (b) how they are playing their current hand. Information about the current hand is not imported or displayed until after it is over. Secondly, merely having these statistics does nothing to give you an advantage or improve your play. You need to be good at several other things, among them: understanding the statistics, watching your opponent's overall style of play, knowing how often your opponent tries to be deceptive with her play, etc.

Finally, I wouldn't give two shits if Party told everyone about PokerTracker. It does not make you a better player, all it does is make you a more informed player. I would relish having 50k people having PT and still not knowing what they were doing.

[ QUOTE ]
it has nothing to do with making the fish's game better. It has to do with you knowing how bad they are and their tendancies when they don't know yours. If they knew yours and ignored it, then so be it.
Yes, the info can be used by anyone. But do they know that info even exists on their hard drive? If they did, do they know that PT exists? If they did, should they be forced to shell out for it just to keep pace? (you do have to pay for the software right?) If they got it and saw how bad their play is, would they keep playing? stop playing? learn how not to play fishy anymore?
The ones that know about it and keep playing deserve to be eaten alive, but as to everyone else they are put at an unknowing and unfair disadvantage that goes beyone their poor play.

[/ QUOTE ]

To begin, I still don't understand how this is any different than physical or mental note-taking. You are processing data about how your opponents play. The accuracy of that data depends on multiple factors, none of which are provided by either PT or your Pen and Paper.

Moreover, my opponents not knowing my tendencies is not my fault. They can know my tendencies without PokerTracker and PlayerView, and if they don't, it's not something THAT GOES BEYOND their "bad play," it is an INHERENT QUALITY OF their "bad play."

Why does it matter if all of my opponents know about PT and PV? Should I only take advantage of the things my opponents also know about? If they don't understand what a check-raise is, should I enlighten them before I do it? Of course not. You will argue that this example is not a good analogy, but it most certainly is. I cannot will that my opponents know everything they can do to make their game better. I would have zero incentive to will such a thing even if I could.

Finally, you continue to assume (or at least imply) that PokerTracker makes someone using it a better poker player ("...just to keep pace.") I will repeat again for emphasis that PokerTracker does nothing to make you a better player. Using computer analysis and motion sensors to analyze your golf swing does not make you a better golfer. Going to the weightroom does not make you a better football player. WHAT YOU DO with these tools makes you better. These tools are not always used by all people in these games, and that fact does not make any of these tools "unfair."

[ QUOTE ]
A poker book gives you information on the macro level (what hands you should play, when in general to raise/fold, figuring out odds, etc.). That is entirely different from a program that tells you on a micro level about how an individual person usually plays a hand, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are confused about the levels of information given by the book and the software, and this is the reason you can't understand the comparison between the two. The book gives you macro-level information about THE GAME OF POKER, the software gives you macro-level information ABOUT THE PLAYERS. They BOTH give you macro-level information. Micro-level information about the player would involve specific information about what they are doing right now and why. PokerTracker cannot give you this information, that would be cheating. Information about what someone "usually" does can not only be gleaned using "traditional" poker skills, but it is positive information, not normative. That is, it does not tell you what to do or what the correct play is, it just gives you facts. The fact that a player "usually" raises with TPTK does not mean she will not raise with an OESD or a pair of sevens with an ace kicker. In this sense, PT only gives you framework information.

[jon_keck]

[ QUOTE ]
Obvious responses.

Glad I play Omaha. It's like having Mozilla when all the idiot virus writers are targeting IE.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because tracking players tendencies and infecting someone's computer with harmful code are so much alike.

Take a chill pill, plz.

[crownjules]

[ QUOTE ]
do not see how the comparison to reading a poker book is relevant even though that is one of the most common replies whenever use of PT is questioned.

[/ QUOTE ]

Books and PT are quite relevant to each other. Neither are required to play the game, but both will improve it if used correctly. Both provide information, but of different types. Both require the player to go out and research their existance in order to utilize them, no one just 'knows' they are there (unless they're omniscient, in which case they wouldn't need them anyway). Both require the player to make an expenditure.

[ QUOTE ]
...that most everyone doesn't have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying because they just don't want to buy it or because they don't know it is there? Either way, it doesn't matter. Knowing it exists and not wanting to buy it is a flat out refusal to improve your game and therefore you deserve not to win (you've said the same). Ignorance is a claim for the lazy and unmotivated, who also deserve to lose. I hated the fact I was losing so I put in some effort to get better. I found 2+2. I found books. I found PT. I applied the concepts and knowledge I learned from all the above to my game. I am now a winning player. Any other player who hates losing can follow the same exact steps and, provided their intelligent enough to utilize the tools correctly and apply them to their game, can also win. PT is not exclusive to select individuals, which would make it an unfair advantage. ANYONE can buy it.

Likening it to steriods is not a correct analogy as PT is not a performance enhancer. It does not enhance your thinking ability like steroids (or similar boosters) enhance your physical ability. As was stated by another poster, it simply condenses raw data (jumbles of hand histories that would be very hard to read through in their entirety) into useable information (detailed stats on players' playing tendencies based on that raw data) that you could also obtain through hand notes and long math.

Your arguement is not about the use of PT but the useage of modern day technology to improve existing processes. You have no problem with a player who takes notes by hand and compiles it himself, but the same exact process done out by PT (technology) is unfair and you cry foul.

[surfdoc]

You got in going on and all, but you really need to clean that chit up. That makes my eyes bleed. Move your stats around so they are readable.

[mrjim]

Online poker and B&amp;M poker are not the same game. They are similar, but have slightly different rules. You can see mucked hands that called on the river (on any site via hand histories btw), you can multitable, and you can use software like PT. Online sites obviously don't try to emulate B&amp;M because they provide mucked hand info, allow multiple tables open and work with Pat on PT.

Because of this, they require different skill sets. Not everyone can 4, 6, 8 table, or process all the info that PV provides on the screen and that's because it is a skill. I for one can't pick up any reads live. I don't have that skill (or at least haven't bothered to work on it). If you want to argue about which game is harder, go for it, but I don't think there are very many people who are good enough at both to speak intelligently on the topic.

It's not the same game, and if you don't like the online game, don't play it. If you want to create a site or lobby a site to emulate B&amp;M poker, go for it (Pacific is probably the closest). I for one don't like B&amp;M play and I don't play there. It's just that simple.

[La Brujita]

[ QUOTE ]
Information sent to an outside program is not permitted

From party T+C.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

Lori,

I didn't bother to read the whole thread but I just wanted to point out that I understand Party changed its method of storing hand histories to make it easier for PT to mine the information. The PT people told me this when I got their opinion about the acceptability of their software with respect to the Party T&amp;C.

Regards

[Losing all]

Good post. Those quotes are just what you could expect from a bot user or cheat. I wasn't pleased when I first heard about data mining. Now what do we have? Hundreds of posts a week about how tough the multi-table grinders are making the games. It's not hard to put 2 and 2 together on that one.

The arguement against slightly winning bots killing the fish can be applied to lots of new, inexperienced players killing the fish with this tool as well.

[Arsene Lupin III]

[ QUOTE ]
But, I would still have a problem with the information being 'overlayed' onto the poker window, under the cooresponding name.

It is not a crime to have the information, but to modify or alter the poker window in ANY way shape or form is a problem for me.

And I would actually have no problem with the current scenero, as long as it was not overlayed on the poker screen.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if they rereleased the software as a transparent 800x600 window with the players' stats visible only when manually added by the user? I don't see how making the information easier to access makes the act any more 'unfair,' even by your silly ethical standards.

And yes, this is 'survival of the fittest.' Would it be okay for PTPat to use this software had he written QT/PV in addition to PT and had never released all three?

Major league sports teams have rooms full of statisticians and assistants who constantly review tapes to compile these data. How is this any different, aside from the automation?

[LargeCents]

I haven't checked into it, but I was wondering how hard it would be to change your name periodically to subvert people collecting stats.

Personally, I have many names, which I fluctuate between on many poker sites. But, I can understand if you have a certain place where you log a heavy number of hours. If you are such a loyal customer to a certain site, I am sure the admins would allow you to change your handle on a semi-weekly or semi-monthly basis, etc. Has anyone tried this?

--Cents

[touchfaith]

Well, nobody has managed to change my mind on this, but it has loosened up a *little*.

I will say though, that dispite most of your 'cheery' views on this, much discussion has been made on both sides of the isle, and I do appreciate that.

Still glad I play Omaha and am (for the time) immune from this type of crap.

[GuruCane]

A comment like this adds nothing to this thread and is the very reason why people despise many of the posters on this site?

"Do you see why?"

[RollaJ]

Makes me wonder what everyones notes say about me, and what their Pt says about me. I wonder if it has ever helped anyone against me, as <font color="blue"> I </font> hardly ever know how I am going to play a specific hand. Anyone care to embarass me with some notes/stats?

[SCfuji]

just dont use them...

[lefty rosen]

Poker tracker is so bad for online poker it's not even funny. All I know is that the Party games are slowly becoming Paradise Poker games before the poker boom. If you want to play in rock gardens above .5/1 at Party go ahead because I don't........ /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry this is so long, but I really feel that the original poster and the people arguing along his line of reasoning are incorrect, and I want to point out where and why.

[ QUOTE ]
How is the information getting on to the Party screen? I'm sure "none" of party's code was used/modified to make that happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct. Information is processed by PokerTracker, then that processed data is overlayed onto the poker table by a separate application. It does not use the poker software in any real way.

[ QUOTE ]
All in all, it's fairly ammusing watching you people defend something that you could obviously not make a dime without.

So many "Internet Pro's"

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't even an argument, it's just an insult. What's worse, it has no factual basis.

[ QUOTE ]
no it isnt. If "everyone else" was using it then I don't think it is such a big deal. The fact is though that only a very small fraction of people know it even exists/know that people are using their past play against them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not see a difference between using someone's past play against them via the use of numerical statistics and doing it via note-taking and memory. Either way, I am using someone's past play against them without their knowledge, and by your logic, I am being unfair.

Secondly, not knowing that it exists has no bearing on the discussion. It is freely available to everyone with an internet connection. It is talked about at just about every poker website and forum, and it is simple to use. How does other players' knowledge factor into the equation? You have expressed disdain for the comparison of PT and books in this thread, but that comparison is used because it successfully refutes this exact argument. Very few people know that the math has been done and that there is generally a "correct" way to play poker. This information is contained in books that only some people know about and even fewer people read. Applying your line of reasoning, reading poker books is not fair.

[ QUOTE ]
So many narrow minds, but of course, nobody expected less.

It's not about technology, it's not about memory, it's not about multi-tabling.

It IS about a level playing field.

If this is so "fair", why is it not biult in to the poker software?

Name ONE online poker site that *provides* this information as part of their program.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your contention that everyone in favor of such software is "narrow-minded" is merely another ad hom that lacks any basis in reality.

Your argument about a "level playing field" is appealing to one's sense of justice and fairness, but makes little sense. The fundamental nature of the game provides a level playing field, and this fact is not changed at all by third party software. There are still fifty-two cards in the deck, there are still only four aces, and you still don't know what anyone else holds. The playing field is by definition level. Your argument is akin to a golfer complaining that the playing field is not level because his opponent is using brand new Nike clubs while he chooses to use equipment from the 1930s.

Your final argument is fallacious, you are begging the question. Just because poker software does not integrate these features into their software does not make third party software doing just that "unfair." As I have argued above, the playing field provided by the site is inherently fair, using statistical software is merely one way to play (fairly) on that level field.

[ QUOTE ]
But, I would still have a problem with the information being 'overlayed' onto the poker window, under the cooresponding name.

It is not a crime to have the information, but to modify or alter the poker window in ANY way shape or form is a problem for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is overlaying the information unfair in and of itself? If you acknowledge that having the information is fair, how can making that information easier to digest be unfair?

[ QUOTE ]
It is completely different to learn how to play a game through books and discussion than it is to take information that would not be usable the way pokertracker makes it and to buy a program to filter thousands of hands and give you real-time information on your opponents.

I said this in another thread a couple weeks ago, but what do you think the reaction of all the fishies would be if party put out a mass email telling them that people are using this program against them without their knowledge.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, the information provided by PokerTracker is not real-time information. It is 100% historical and gives no prediction or information about either (a) Your opponent's hands or (b) how they are playing their current hand. Information about the current hand is not imported or displayed until after it is over. Secondly, merely having these statistics does nothing to give you an advantage or improve your play. You need to be good at several other things, among them: understanding the statistics, watching your opponent's overall style of play, knowing how often your opponent tries to be deceptive with her play, etc.

Finally, I wouldn't give two shits if Party told everyone about PokerTracker. It does not make you a better player, all it does is make you a more informed player. I would relish having 50k people having PT and still not knowing what they were doing.

[ QUOTE ]
it has nothing to do with making the fish's game better. It has to do with you knowing how bad they are and their tendancies when they don't know yours. If they knew yours and ignored it, then so be it.
Yes, the info can be used by anyone. But do they know that info even exists on their hard drive? If they did, do they know that PT exists? If they did, should they be forced to shell out for it just to keep pace? (you do have to pay for the software right?) If they got it and saw how bad their play is, would they keep playing? stop playing? learn how not to play fishy anymore?
The ones that know about it and keep playing deserve to be eaten alive, but as to everyone else they are put at an unknowing and unfair disadvantage that goes beyone their poor play.

[/ QUOTE ]

To begin, I still don't understand how this is any different than physical or mental note-taking. You are processing data about how your opponents play. The accuracy of that data depends on multiple factors, none of which are provided by either PT or your Pen and Paper.

Moreover, my opponents not knowing my tendencies is not my fault. They can know my tendencies without PokerTracker and PlayerView, and if they don't, it's not something THAT GOES BEYOND their "bad play," it is an INHERENT QUALITY OF their "bad play."

Why does it matter if all of my opponents know about PT and PV? Should I only take advantage of the things my opponents also know about? If they don't understand what a check-raise is, should I enlighten them before I do it? Of course not. You will argue that this example is not a good analogy, but it most certainly is. I cannot will that my opponents know everything they can do to make their game better. I would have zero incentive to will such a thing even if I could.

Finally, you continue to assume (or at least imply) that PokerTracker makes someone using it a better poker player ("...just to keep pace.") I will repeat again for emphasis that PokerTracker does nothing to make you a better player. Using computer analysis and motion sensors to analyze your golf swing does not make you a better golfer. Going to the weightroom does not make you a better football player. WHAT YOU DO with these tools makes you better. These tools are not always used by all people in these games, and that fact does not make any of these tools "unfair."

[ QUOTE ]
A poker book gives you information on the macro level (what hands you should play, when in general to raise/fold, figuring out odds, etc.). That is entirely different from a program that tells you on a micro level about how an individual person usually plays a hand, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are confused about the levels of information given by the book and the software, and this is the reason you can't understand the comparison between the two. The book gives you macro-level information about THE GAME OF POKER, the software gives you macro-level information ABOUT THE PLAYERS. They BOTH give you macro-level information. Micro-level information about the player would involve specific information about what they are doing right now and why. PokerTracker cannot give you this information, that would be cheating. Information about what someone "usually" does can not only be gleaned using "traditional" poker skills, but it is positive information, not normative. That is, it does not tell you what to do or what the correct play is, it just gives you facts. The fact that a player "usually" raises with TPTK does not mean she will not raise with an OESD or a pair of sevens with an ace kicker. In this sense, PT only gives you framework information.

[/ QUOTE ]

the bottom line is that you can know facts about a player's tendancies from the first hand you play, while someone who doesnt use it cant. Poker is played based on incomplete information, and you clearly have more information that someone not using PT. No amount of notes on a player can equal having all of those stats against someone that you may not have played against in 3 months. You cannot honestly contend that someone can put hand histories into a usable form to use against a particular player without using some sort or software like PT. Using this info subverts having to use your memory, it is not the same as using it.
Further, the software gives you macro information about the players only if you look at an average of how all players play aggregately. If you are looking at an individual player's stats, that would be at the micro level.

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
Online poker and B&amp;M poker are not the same game. They are similar, but have slightly different rules. You can see mucked hands that called on the river (on any site via hand histories btw), you can multitable, and you can use software like PT. Online sites obviously don't try to emulate B&amp;M because they provide mucked hand info, allow multiple tables open and work with Pat on PT.

Because of this, they require different skill sets. Not everyone can 4, 6, 8 table, or process all the info that PV provides on the screen and that's because it is a skill. I for one can't pick up any reads live. I don't have that skill (or at least haven't bothered to work on it). If you want to argue about which game is harder, go for it, but I don't think there are very many people who are good enough at both to speak intelligently on the topic.

It's not the same game, and if you don't like the online game, don't play it. If you want to create a site or lobby a site to emulate B&amp;M poker, go for it (Pacific is probably the closest). I for one don't like B&amp;M play and I don't play there. It's just that simple.

[/ QUOTE ]

you can ask to see a losing hand on the river in a B&amp;M if they bet. The point is to prevent collusion. This reasoning has been twisted by use of PT software.

[mrjim]

I realize you can ask, but it isn't reasonable to do so every time you would like. However, it is online. Also, if the sites only wanted you to know by asking, they could force you to request it specifically. They don't.

What about the other points?

[dana33]

[ QUOTE ]
Justify it any way you want, the bottom line is that it is information that you were either a) too lazy to gather, or b) too stupid to gather.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I agree. And what really gets me too are those idiots with player notebooks who are just too stupid or too lazy to compute in their heads and memorize the stats for all their opponents. I also dislike those people who buy their own tools because they are too lazy or too stupid to make them out of flint themselves.

[ctj]

My opinion, FWIW:

I have no problem with people using PT to collate data on hands that occurred at their own table.

I do have a problem with using PT as a 'statistics bot' to record hands at other tables.

I have an even bigger problem with people sharing PT data, and an even bigger problem with people buying/selling PT data. (I have no idea if there is such a market, but it wouldn't suprise me). This feels like collusion to me, albeit not 'at the table' collusion.

These practices seem to me to lead to a wasteful (and ultimately harmful to the game) 'arms race' of more and more stat-bots and data-sharing combines leading to more and more countermeasures (changing of screen names, switching sites, playing under someone else's screen name.

[lorinda]

PT and PlayerView are not. End of discussion.

This thread is completely worthless.


In 900+ posts this is the first time I've disagreed with you.

You sign the T+C to say you won't use an external program, so it's cheating.

However whether it is prudent to use something in self-defence because many other people are using it is a totally different matter, and I would agree that it's stupid to deliberately handicap yourself

Information sent to an outside program is not permitted

You are sending their information to an outside program.

Lori

[lorinda]

I didn't bother to read the whole thread but I just wanted to point out that I understand Party changed its method of storing hand histories to make it easier for PT to mine the information. The PT people told me this when I got their opinion about the acceptability of their software with respect to the Party T&amp;C.

Thanks.

Maybe they should clear this up for everyone, it's far from clear.

I'm in the 'give it to everyone' camp and even before this thread have started work on methods to prevent programs from tracking my play successfully.

Lori

[lorinda]

La Brujita cleared this up for me, see above post.

Lori

[SlantNGo]

I agree... I dislike datamining and I hate the idea of people swapping DBs.

[daryn]

i love playerview. oh, not because i use it. i love that it's creating a whole new crop of players that have to rely on it like a crutch. i can't wait til they move up and have to start using their brains, which have all grown weak from advanced atrophy.

[lorinda]

i love playerview. oh, not because i use it. i love that it's creating a whole new crop of players that have to rely on it like a crutch. i can't wait til they move up and have to start using their brains, which have all grown weak from advanced atrophy.

I have to admit, I drew this conclusion from reading the monster David Ross thread.

Lori

[The13atman]

[ QUOTE ]
All in all, it's fairly ammusing watching you people defend something that you could obviously not make a dime without.

So many "Internet Pro's"

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh! I just recently started using GT+ (although I've been using PT for quite awhile) and averaged 3.3 BB/100 or so over 25,000 hands before I ever used GT+. I know that's not AMAZING, but it's not half bad either. The only difference with GT+ is that I can now play 3 (and possibly 4 in the future) tables at once instead of just 2 like before.

[sasubpar]

[ QUOTE ]
the bottom line is that you can know facts about a player's tendancies from the first hand you play, while someone who doesnt use it cant.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I can't. PokerTracker doesn't magically tell me what these people have done in the past if I've never played at the same table as them (unless you have been datamining, which I believe to be borderline unfair.)

[ QUOTE ]
Poker is played based on incomplete information, and you clearly have more information that someone not using PT.

[/ QUOTE ]

While that is true, the game is not fundamentally changed since the person using PT still has incomplete information. Additionally, you have ignored my argument that this information does not make someone a better player, just as reading a book doesn't.

[ QUOTE ]
No amount of notes on a player can equal having all of those stats against someone that you may not have played against in 3 months. You cannot honestly contend that someone can put hand histories into a usable form to use against a particular player without using some sort or software like PT. Using this info subverts having to use your memory, it is not the same as using it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did not argue that they were exactly the same, I agrued that they were similar. You made the blanket statement that unequal information was at all times unfair. I refuted that by arguing that someone with superior memory or better perception skills would be at an unfair advantage at all times.

[ QUOTE ]
Further, the software gives you macro information about the players only if you look at an average of how all players play aggregately. If you are looking at an individual player's stats, that would be at the micro level.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see where you're coming from, but you're still wrong. You are getting only an overview of how a player plays. This is by definition macro information. You are getting no specific information on which starting cards they play, which cards they fold, when they like to raise, etc. This is a different type of macro information than is contained in a book, but it is most certainly still macro information.

[NoChance]

Lets take a closer look at the Terms and Conditions in question from Party Poker:

[ QUOTE ]
6. Artificial Intelligence.
We are committed to detecting and preventing software programs which are designed to enable artificial intelligence (non-human) to play on our site. Such programs are often designed to send information about cards, dice or players to an external program. Information sent to an outside program is not permitted. The company will take measures to prevent and detect the use of such programs using methods including but not limited to screen scraping or reading the list of currently running programs on a player’s computer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe Lorinda took the Information sent to an outside program is not permitted. line out of context. This is referring to aiding an artificial intelligence (non-human) to play the game. It is to prevent sending card information to an external program. IMO I think they are referring to the cards the person is currently holding, not information contained in hand histories (about previous hands). And as was already stated earlier, PT Pat has been in contact with them the whole time about all this. I guarantee they know about the program and would have stopped it long ago if it did not meet these terms and conditions.

&lt;my two cents&gt;

*No offense Lorinda. Love ya and always will! I just think it has been interpreted incorrectly here*

[lorinda]

If I had that much of an issue with it, I wouldn't use PT (I have an issue with affiliate stuff and still don't get rakeback) however I really think it needs clarifying in the T+C. There will be people who don't use it because of the T+C.

I take that line to be their way of saying what they consider AI to be (An outside program) and even though PT and plug ins are clearly not AI, I would still believe it fits their description.

I trust you, and Brujita however and will take your word that it has the all clear with Party.
I've always thought PT was borderline, and the concerns raised about plugging a bot into the new data will one day (although not for some time) become important.

The REAL thing I don't like is when HH's go down and everyone starts getting really upset as if they have a divine right to see every hand.
It would be much better if only a few hands per day (required to be able to spot collusion) could be ordered.

The concern that fish will feel cheated is a real one, ask a few non-poker playing friends what they would feel about it.

Anyway, I'll leave the thread now, it's one of those issues that most people are not going to change their minds about and as I've never really been sure of my own thoughts either way, I'll only be contributing noise.

Lori

[Freudian]

I don't agree with using it being morally wrong, since Party choose to make this information available (and they realize how it is used). Hell, they even added the ability to datamine.

What I don't understand is why they do it. It only penalizes the fish, which should be the most important group to keep playing. Perhaps they found out that the players using these tools provide a lot of rake through the sheer volume they play and is therefor a more important group to keep happy? Alternatively, this group would switch to another site providing them with use of these tools if Party didn't.

[NoChance]

I will say that I don't datamine. I want data from players I am currently playing against because I KNOW what the table conditions are and I leave when unfavorable. Therefore, my stats are accurate for the conditions I play in.

Having said that, I don't mind that others datamine. They can get an overall average of how I play the game in all cumulative situations but that does not tell them how I play against a rock or a LAG. It is completely different for every situation but PT and playerview are just giving you the "average" play.

I may be confusing things for everyone know. Hopefully you understand these latest comments. I will let others take it from here. It's an interesting conversation.

[AncientPC]

Best troll of the week.

[soah]

Thank you for contacting PartyPoker.com Customer Care with your
concerns and allowing us to clarify our stand.

At the outset let me explain to you that information procured from
PartyPoker through legitimate accounts which in turn are entitled to
receive any game records of their play (as long as its for their
analysis/use) is allowed.

We categorically state that we do not allow any information to be
downloaded without our authorization or consent to the intentions behind it.

As part of our initiative to block artificial intelligence or
prohibited software/programs that might give players an undue advantage over the
others on the table by taking decisions or actually playing, we have
proceeded to monitor and block the use of such software/programs from
running in conjunction with our PartyPoker.com client.
We are constantly looking for ways to stop such programs from running
with our software by making our client incompatible with these
applications. We have actively implemented measures to stop such programs in the
past and would constantly do so in the future.

<font color="red">For programs which displays player statistics and simply calculates
poker odds we currently do not have restrictions to stop such applications
from running in conjunction with our software.</font>

In regards to our concern on 'the use of robotic and computer based
software at their site', we would like to mention that we have proactively
implemented security measures to identify and block such applications
from running in conjunction with our poker software. As part of this
initiative we have recently implemented technical changes that would
ensure that known BOT applications are identified, detected and rendered
useless.

<font color="red">To sum it up we presently have restrictions/countermeasures on all
known BOT application but not on other software which merely calculate
poker odds or display player statistics derived from information acquired
by legitimate accounts with no ill intentions.</font>

If you have any further questions, comments or concerns, please contact
us at alerts@PartyPoker.com and we will be more than glad to assist
you.


Original Post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1332083&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;s b=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1)

[lorinda]

Thanks,

Lori

[golFUR]

If you are in fact a lawyer, I have no doubt you are a poor one. My grammar was simple, I did not compare tracking stats to reading books. I was talking about secrets, not specifics.

i.e. Piss off, you can't out-pedant a pedant.

[golFUR]

I agree, pretty much all the way around.

Notice that in neither of my previous posts did I say whether or not I used a stat tracker myself...

[golFUR]

True, irrelevant but true. You've managed twice in the same thread to give me useless responses. Please stop.

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
True, irrelevant but true. You've managed twice in the same thread to give me useless responses. Please stop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right back at ya.

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with using it being morally wrong, since Party choose to make this information available (and they realize how it is used). Hell, they even added the ability to datamine.

What I don't understand is why they do it. It only penalizes the fish, which should be the most important group to keep playing. Perhaps they found out that the players using these tools provide a lot of rake through the sheer volume they play and is therefor a more important group to keep happy? Alternatively, this group would switch to another site providing them with use of these tools if Party didn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you hit the nail on the head. Party does not care about the fairness or moral issue. They chose the most +EV play for them, which is what poker is all about.

[Subby]

This is a pretty interesting thread. A few comments:

1) Heavy datamining is fairly overrated, especially at lower limits. I datamined about 30K 1/2 hands in January and I ended up with heavy data on a bunch of TA-As and scattered data on the fish and maniacs. The life of a fish and a maniac is pretty short anyway - they either wise up (like I did eventually) or go broke. The amount of data you would have combined with the how often you would have to gather it probably exceeds the physical limitations of PT and your home computer.

The real value is being able to datamine a table for 30 minutes before you sit down and then continue to auto-update your hand histories and send that info to GT+ while you play. How much of an edge does this give someone? Tough to say - I know it makes me feel more *comfortable* with my decisions, but I don't know that it has made me more profitable or a better player.

2) The folks who say that PT/GT+ are turning the lower limits into rock gardens need to mosey on over to the 1/2 6max games. It's where the ADHD fish with their last $50 go to die. The 1/2GBP games at Crypto are also similarily loose (and Crypto allows for use of PT/GT+).

3) PT and GT+ are tools. Just like a nail gun won't make someone a better carpenter, PT/GT+ won't make you a better poker player. They won't keep you from CCPF with A7o. You still have to read and learn and play and understand.

Anyway - as long as PT and GT+ are readily available to everyone and they don't violate the T&amp;Cs of the poker rooms at which they are utilized, then I don't really have an issue. I know folks are gathering data on me...let's just hope they are still relying on my data from November and December. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[CLC]

ThinMan wrote:
[ QUOTE ]
... it is information that you where ... a) too lazy to gather,

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Found Programs (PT, PV, GT+)
2) Determined value of programs
3) Purchased programs (as applicable)
4) Learned to use programs
5) Configured programs
6) Used Information
7) Refined program parameters
8) Studied performance/results
9) Refined program parameters
10) Repeat steps 8 &amp; 9
11) Repeat step 10
12) Repeat step 11
ETC., ETC., ETC. .....

ThinMan wrote:
[ QUOTE ]
... it is information that you where ... b) too stupid to gather

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Found Programs (PT, PV, GT+)
2) Determined value of programs
3) Purchased programs (as applicable)
4) Learned to use programs
5) Configured programs
6) Used Information
7) Refined program parameters
8) Studied performance/results
9) Refined program parameters
10) Repeat steps 8 &amp; 9
11) Repeat step 10
12) Repeat step 11
ETC., ETC., ETC. .....

duuhhh .. I think it is time for a nap.

[frank_iii]

[ QUOTE ]
Dude totally! Whoever invented the check-raise should be shot in the head!

[/ QUOTE ]

What's a check-raise and why would you do it? Bet if you have the best hand, fold if you don't. That's what my pappy taught me.

[frank_iii]

[ QUOTE ]
Makes me wonder what everyones notes say about me, and what their Pt says about me. I wonder if it has ever helped anyone against me, as <font color="blue"> I </font> hardly ever know how I am going to play a specific hand. Anyone care to embarass me with some notes/stats?

[/ QUOTE ]

Best post in the thread!!

[frank_iii]

[ QUOTE ]
i love playerview. oh, not because i use it. i love that it's creating a whole new crop of players that have to rely on it like a crutch. i can't wait til they move up and have to start using their brains, which have all grown weak from advanced atrophy.

[/ QUOTE ]

HAHA, second best post in the thread!

I must be a missing out on something, but I don't use these tools to make my decisions. They might influence me to call down or isolate a LAG, but I'd know much of that after a few orbits anyway.

Perhaps I'm not as advanced in my usage of the programs, but I don't think they help all that much with the common marginal situations that crop up so often...I still need to think and put people on hands.

EDIT: How much analysis can you really do against an LP-P or LA-A, anyway? No tool's going to give the magic answer.

[gasoltub]

LP-P
Calls a raise preflop with any Q or higher
Check-Calls to river with any pair







/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[flair1239]

I use PT primarily to examine my own game. I like to watch sessions and borderline hands.

The next thing I use it for is to identify weak players. IMO, it works best identifying extremes (ie. PFR over 40% over a period of hands).

I think it is overated as far as trying to micro-classify players. For instance I know there have been sessions where I have ran 30% VPIP with 10% PFR, however this is not typical for me. Other sessions I know my stats would probably be passive. Ususally there is a reason for it.

So to weigh-in I think the opponent information in PT has a limited usefullenss, that is Identifying extremes and giving you a very general snap-shot of a particular player. So I really don't see it as a huge threat, and I think some people overstate it's importance in their win rates.

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
big deal. The fact is though that only a very small fraction of people know it even exists/know that people are using their past play against them.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very true.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, and whose fault is that? Playing poker for money is about taking every advantage you can. If the fish don't use PT and PV or GT that is b/c they are the ones too lazy/stupid to find out about it.

(Not meaning that in a malicious way AC /images/graemlins/smile.gif )

[RollaJ]

[ QUOTE ]
LP-P
Calls a raise preflop with any Q or higher
Check-Calls to river with any pair







/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Only 4 handed or less /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[trainslayer]

i just started using PT (as well as these forums) in the last month, so my experience probably doesn't count for much, but so far the most useful thing i used it for is to plug up my own game. I've been playing online for about a year at the micro limits and was down about $300. i found SSHE in December and it was so disconcerting to learn how little i understood that i quit playing all but play money for a month. i started playin again in January and so far i've made back up $115 of that loss. PT tells me i'm still a little too loose and not nearly aggressive enuf. point is, if the other fishes don't invest the time or energy to turn their games around, well that's their bad....and my good.

[rdu $teve]

[ QUOTE ]
How is the information getting on to the Party screen? I'm sure "none" of party's code was used/modified to make that happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

My point exactly. Poker tracker uses the hand history files to create the database. Then Gametime+ pulls the various stats from the database and displays them on an overlapping window. Party's software is not hacked into or modified in any way. All of the neccesary info is available to anyone at all times.

In order for you to see another player's cards (before you are supposed to), you would have to hack into party poker's software and modify it, of make a program to leak the info to you. I'm not a computer programing wiz, so I dont know all the details; I doubt the info, about another players cards, is even sent to your computer until the hand is over anyway.

My comments were directed toward your statement about "what happens when someone writes a program to let them see you cards". Either way, there is a clear difference between seeing their cards, and using software to observe the tendencies in their playing style.

[Beavis68]

[ QUOTE ]
Justify it any way you want, the bottom line is that it is information that you where either a) too lazy to gather, or b) too stupid to gather.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks like it is being gathered pretty efficiently too me.... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[nongice626]

biumpedg d gdgedsh

[college kid]

[ QUOTE ]
You sign the T+C to say you won't use an external program, so it's cheating.

However whether it is prudent to use something in self-defence because many other people are using it is a totally different matter, and I would agree that it's stupid to deliberately handicap yourself

Information sent to an outside program is not permitted

You are sending their information to an outside program.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]


I found this thread searching for something else and even though I doubt anybody will ever see this post, I am putting in my say. I have it direct from Party stating that article 6 of the T&amp;C relates to programs which take info from Party as the hand is happening--i.e. purge the program and relay realtime info. And I quote from the e-mail: "Artificial intelligence software is prohibited and we take measures to block it. PokerTracker and PlayerView are not artificial intelligence software. We discourage the use of any software which gives any player an unfair advantage. If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to" yada yada yada and so on. As stupid as it is, I told Party I used PT and PV and they just send me a bunch of e-mails stating that otuside software is bad. I e-mailed them quoting their own e-mail and their T&amp;C and they have confirmed that I am NOT in violation of the T&amp;C. They send me nasty e-mails, but my account isn't frozen or anything, and I have been open with them and they have no reason to withhold any of my moneys. I have also saved the e-mails and their record numbers (from the subject line) in case they deside later that I am not worthy of trying to keep as a customer.

[cianosheehan]

[ QUOTE ]
Many of them already think that bots infest the games (which, from the way you worded you last statement is what you seem to want them to think), but play anyway because that's what they want to do. People will play poker, people will lose at poker, and people will find something to blame it on. And you know what, they'll come right back anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many times have I heard at the tables, "only on pp"

[boondoggle]

[ QUOTE ]
I use poker tracker and playerview but I think playerview goes to far and I rather it wasn't there and I think it's 100% a really bad thing for poker. It makes it way too easy for middle of the road, lazy players. The second thing is what's next? A stats program that will compute the correct play for you based on number of players, the flop, etc can't be far behind. It may not make bad players great but it may make average players a lot better, which, despite what a lot of people think, is the majority of the players sitting at a table.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your perception is correct and it hurts the profitability in the long term but many people fail to see this. The means justify the ends and so when they overfish...it will be funny watching them whine.

cheers
Boon

[PITTM]

i have 5 different names on the party network, its fun that you know people from playing with them all the time and you can change skins and they have no idea who you are...or when you play on pokernow and you see everyone as mounties and hockey players and they have no idea, haha.

rj

[AncientPC]

If I use PV when I'm 432780'ing then I must be unable to play poker live at a single table with 30 hands/hr, right?

[a1doug182]

[ QUOTE ]
thinman is right. in the old days, they didn't need no computers. they remembered. and they drove all 'round texas, taking peoples' money. and they didn't need notes at all. they'd just move all in, and put the other guy to the test for all his chips.

now that's real poker, not these fancy computer type thingys. you guys probably let the computer tell you what time it is too, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

And I guess you tell time by the sun and a stick in the sand.