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View Full Version : AQ - turned top 2 pair against pre-flop 3-betting TAG.

Fat Nicky
02-07-2005, 11:48 AM
Villain is a TAG.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.66 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero....

a)checks with the intention of raising, then leading the river or calling down a 3-bet.
b)bets with the intention of calling down a raise.
c)bets with the intention of 3-betting a raise.
d)other
brettbrettr
02-07-2005, 11:50 AM
Its either a c/r or a bet with intention of 3 betting. I think I like the latter. Given the hearts, I don't see any way for the c/r to turn into a 3 bet, and best to get some money in the pot here.
utrnbmp3
02-07-2005, 12:05 PM
I wouldn't put a tag at a flush A Q are out.
You have the best hand over 50% of the time here. Value bet it.
check? you'll probably get 3 bets by check-rasing and leading the river
bet? i'm guessing you can get 4 bets bet-raise-reraise, bet-call.
chief444
02-07-2005, 12:10 PM
[ QUOTE ]
i'm guessing you can get 4 bets bet-raise-reraise

[/ QUOTE ]
I doubt if AK or AJ reraise.

I would probably check/raise and lead the river no matter what card falls.
Fat Nicky
02-07-2005, 03:06 PM
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.66 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO checks.

DOH!!!! This is sometimes a worse feeling than getting sucked out on by a 2 outter.

River: (5.66 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero....

Now what???
chief444
02-07-2005, 03:14 PM
Bet and fold to a raise I guess.
Schizo
02-07-2005, 04:16 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I would probably check/raise and lead the river no matter what card falls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check raise what the turn? That falls into the free card play. That doesn't seem right.
chief444
02-07-2005, 04:19 PM
CO 3-bet preflop and raised an A-high flop. It's unlikely that he's trying for a free card. I think you're being results oriented.
Schizo
02-07-2005, 04:36 PM
[ QUOTE ]
CO 3-bet preflop and raised an A-high flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You win.
runa
02-07-2005, 05:54 PM
I second that motion.

Go Clarky!

Well, unless he's a 2+2'er who knows you're also a 2+2'er and then he'll raise with just about anything...doh!
runa
02-07-2005, 06:03 PM
No 3-bet on flop?

I vote for c) because you have a huge edge since there's a 1/15 chance you're ahead on the turn, a high PP might not bet the turn looking for a cheap showdown, AK might raise giving you a nice 3-bet, and about 1/3 of those hands of either AK or premium PP might have a high heart in it for a strong redraw assuming 3-bet standards includes AK, AA-TT. Checking that turn might hurt alot if you opponent has potentially 11-12 outs to the river if that high heart is in that person's hand.
utrnbmp3
02-08-2005, 01:33 AM
I would like to go back to the turn play.

Assumption:
1) You will win this hand
2) Question is how to play to extract the most value
3) Assume river play is irrelevant

comparing strategy of
1)check-raising
2) bet, player 2 may raise, and you re-raise

By checking, you have payoff of

0 x P(player 2 check|you checked) + 2 x (player 2 raise|you checked)

By Betting you have

1 x P(call | you bet) + 3 x P (raise | you bet)

So for example,
check: 0 x .15 + 2 x .85 = 1.7
bet: 1 x .5 + 3 x .5 = 2

Of course, with imperfect information, you'll need to estimate the numbers. The previous poster made a good point. AK or AJ may not raise to your bet and it really depends on who you're playing against. I honestly don't think it will make much of a difference which strategy you follow
utrnbmp3
02-08-2005, 01:39 AM
bet and fold to raise.
runa
02-08-2005, 01:47 PM
[ QUOTE ]
there's a 1/15 chance you're ahead on the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

I think what I meant to say was theres a 14/15 chance you're ahead...me bad at math
mr pink
02-08-2005, 01:58 PM
i like the stop and go here.

1. it will confuse him and possibly get him to raise an AK, in which case you can 3-bet it.

2. with the 3 hearts on board you don't want to give a free card to the K /images/graemlins/heart.gif - he could have raised the flop w/ KK trying to get a free card or cheap showdwon.

3. i think the check/raise gives away your hand away pretty obviously to almost any thinking TAG.

peace - jeff