Israeli officer riddles 13 year old girl with bullets to verify kill

[Gamblor]

Oops. Wait. No he didn't.

Capt. accused of verifying kill released (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1107659936495)

In a dramatic about-face, one of the soldiers who testified that he had seen Capt. R., the Givati company commander, shoot 13-year-old Iman al-Hams to death at point-blank range last October near the Girit outpost close to Rafah, admitted to the Southern Command Military Court on Sunday that he had lied.

Following the developments, the court ordered the release of Capt. R. from custody and the return of his weapon to him. He will go back to the division and receive details of his future post.

"Despite two previous court sessions, the soldier admitted to lying and fabricating the story," Capt. R.'s lawyer, Elad Eizenberg, told The Jerusalem Post.

Eizenberg said the charges against his client were based mainly on the testimonies of two soldiers, the one who recanted on Sunday and another who, in an earlier hearing, was unable to confirm that the company commander had aimed his weapon and shot the girl.

According to Eizenberg, the former told the court that he and others lied in an attempt to oust Capt. R. from the company. R. had taken up his post two months before Hams was shot.

"He fought against all sorts of problems he encountered among the soldiers in an attempt to restore discipline. The soldiers apparently took advantage of the situation and decided to incriminate him and kick him out. They had a clear-cut agenda," Eizenberg said.

According to Eizenberg, prior to the shooting of the girl, the soldiers had approached Israel Radio with another story in an attempt to discredit their commander.

Capt R. was indicted last November on two counts of illegal use of weapons, obstruction of justice, unbecoming behavior and the improper use of authority that endangered others. He has been confined to an army base since his arrest.

Throughout, he has denied the charges against him and expressed his intention to clear his name.

Yoav Mani, a lawyer on the defense team, said it intends to demand a Military Police investigation in the wake of the recent developments.

[bholdr]

shameful. violence and war really does F**k people up, huh?

[Cyrus]

First you condoned and justified the killing, when it was first reported, by offering all sorts of excuses for the officer having acted as he reportedly did.

Now, you are saying that the shooting, "in fact", never happened. As if this resolves anything.

Without going into the details, I will have you know that your position was already bankrupt from the moment you excused and justified the multiple-shooting execution of an unarmed, frightened and harmless 13-year old girl.

Because, even if indeed the specific incident did not take place as reported, you're justifying it theoretically and will endorse it -- if and when it happens.

And, as you know, shootings like that occur routinely, from both sides, Palestinians and Israelis. Your particular brand of terrorism happens to wear the star of David instead of the Islamic crescent, that is all there is.

[zaxx19]

And, as you know, shootings like that occur routinely, from both sides

THEY ABSOLUTELY DO NOT OCCUR ROUTINELY FROM BOTH SIDES...THATS MORAL EQUIVOCATION.

Your particular brand of terrorism happens to wear the star of David instead of the Islamic crescent, that is all there is.

The Moslems of the middle East have no qualms about engaging in genocide/ethnic cleansing for better or worse the Jews do.

First you condoned and justified the killing, when it was first reported, by offering all sorts of excuses for the officer having acted as he reportedly did.

Bc given the moral bankruptcy of the Palestinian side there are MANY circumstances in which her killing could be justified OR COULD BE laid AT THE HANDS OF ARAB KILLERS(see Mo durrha)

Keep trying though maybe one day your lies will convince more than some college frosh that the Jews are just as bad as the terrorist and that the US should abandone Israel to the see of terrorist and murderers that would love to see another Sudan take place.

[Gamblor]

First you condoned and justified the killing, when it was first reported, by offering all sorts of excuses for the officer having acted as he reportedly did.

No sir, I did not. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1304553&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1)

This was my post explaining that if this indeed happened, there were likely extenuating circumstances we weren't aware of, in addition to the likely circumstances in which such a tragedy would occur that did not require some violation of Judeo-Christian morals (same ones yore usin', imagine that!). Such as a subordinate soldier bent on treason.

Without going into the details, I will have you know that your position was already bankrupt from the moment you excused and justified the multiple-shooting execution of an unarmed, frightened and harmless 13-year old girl.

"Without going into the details?" Seems to me that where there's no smoke, there ain't no fire.

And, as you know, shootings like that occur routinely, from both sides, Palestinians and Israelis. Your particular brand of terrorism happens to wear the star of David instead of the Islamic crescent, that is all there is.

Shootings like this occur on a regular basis, from kibbutz infiltrations in which Arab terrorists slaughter a mom reading a bedtime story to her kids, to a teenaged Arab blowing herself up while a grandmother picks out vegetables at a supermarket.

Israeli soldiers, as it turns out, don't do this.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
No sir, I did not [condone and justify the killing by offering all sorts of excuses for the officer].

[/ QUOTE ]

You didn't, huh?

As always, I will allow you to place your own foot squarely into your mouth:

[ QUOTE ]
My post explain[ed] that ... there were likely extenuating circumstances we weren't aware of, in addition to the likely circumstances in which such a tragedy would occur that didnot requiresome violationofJudeo-Christianmorals and[snip]

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa.

/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Cyrus]

What are you blathering on about now ?

I (graciously) equated the two sides' atrocities. But since you are not satisfied even with such mollifying gestures, let me challenge you, here and now, to posting up your estimates of the number of Palestinian children killed by Israelis so far and the number of Israeli children killed by Palestinians so far.

Let's say children under 16, would that do? For the last decade or whatever.

Your move.

[Gamblor]

Gamblor: No sir, I did not [condone and justify the killing by offering all sorts of excuses for the officer].

I offered all sorts of excuses for the officer? An excuse for riddling a 13 year old girl with bullets would require the suggestion that she had it coming. Let's check it out:

My post explain[ed] that ... there were likely extenuating circumstances we weren't aware of, in addition to the likely circumstances in which such a tragedy would occur that didnot requiresome violationofJudeo-Christianmorals

I didn't see it in there. Let's check again.

My post explain[ed] that ... there were likely extenuating circumstances we weren't aware of, in addition to the likely circumstances in which such a tragedy would occur that didnot requiresome violationofJudeo-Christianmorals

This is a clear suggestion that this event did not happen as nicky and the world media portrayed it to happen. Making excuses and condoning the event would require a) accepting the nickyg version as fact and b) making excuses (ie she deserved it, it was an accident). (amazing how you question my arguments so rigourously but immediately accept nickyg's unverified claims as fact!).

As it turns out, I was right. it didn't happen at all!

Next post: Cyrus argues with the tooth fairy!

[KingMarc]

What I honestly don't get is why occasionally when an Israeli does something wrong, theres dozens of posts here about it. On the other hand, there are few, if any, posts about the countless suicide bombings from the Arab side.

My point is, it seems like everyone here is against the Israelis. It's kind of like how half the world is against America. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but at least get some basic understanding first-- otherwise you're just ignorant.. kind of like the Arabs burning the American flag after September 11th...

Let me clarify a few points before I get flamed:

a) Not all soldiers are perfect, and they don't represent the entire nation of which they are serving. It's the same thing as blaming all American soldiers and America itself for Abu Gharib. Were people to blame? Yes they were. Do all US soldiers act like that, and does the US condone it? No. Should the ones that committed these heinous crimes be punished? Of course they should.

b) Not all Arabs are terrorists. Not even a majority of them are. However, the majority of terrorists are Arab. I have seen no Israeli suicide bombers going into Iran, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, etc. and killing dozens of people on buses, in restaurants, etc.

Yes, there are other terrorists in the world, and I'm not saying there aren't. I'm just saying a majority are Arab. Whether you consider this unP.C. doesn't really bother me.

So please, stop ignoring important occurances, and choosing to comment only on one side of the issue.

Just my 2 cents. Digest of it how you like.

[Gamblor]

Not all soldiers are perfect, and they don't represent the entire nation of which they are serving.

I'm not sure if you missed the point of the original post or not, but if this does refer to the incident under discussion, the soldier did NOT shoot the girl in question, and it was later admitted by the only witnesses to be a hoax. That is, they invented the story.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
Not all soldiers are perfect, and they don't represent the entire nation of which they are serving. Not all Arabs are terrorists.

[/ QUOTE ]

Both Israeli soldiers and Arab terrorists, though, through their actions, are indicative of what is going on. Arabs are desperate; Israelis are intransigent. Arabs will never audit their actions; Israelis will, publicly sometimes. Etcetera.

[ QUOTE ]
What I honestly don't get is why occasionally when an Israeli does something wrong, there’s dozens of posts here about it. On the other hand, there are few, if any, posts about the countless suicide bombings from the Arab side.

[/ QUOTE ]

People everywhere, including this forum, have an inherent ability to distinguish right from wrong. I'm not some kind of optimist, this is how things are. And IMO people see two sets of (let's assume) equally disgusting actions (blowing up an Israeli disco; blowing up a housing complex in Ramallah) and choose to comment only on one of them. It is because the balance of power is overwhelmingly on one side and the (disgusting, etc) actions of those under the heel are bound not to be condemned as much as the (disgusting, etc) actions of the oppressor.

[ QUOTE ]
It seems like everyone here is against the Israelis.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure it will surprise you to learn that I'm far from being "against the Israelis". I actually have the greatest respect, affection or admiration for most of them! What I'm against are the anachronistically supremacist and genocidal ideology and policy followed by the likes of Ariel "The Butcher" Sharon!

But, if unquestioning support of Israel is your cup of tea, there are people here (Zaxx, Gamblor, others) who "know better" what's good for Israel.

[ QUOTE ]
The majority of terrorists are Arab.

[/ QUOTE ]

And why is that, have you ever stopped to wonder a moment? How is it that America has managed to alienate a whole nation that once was its greatest "bulwark against communism" in the Middle East? How come that so many Arabs hate America deeply? You think it's because they "resent American values"? That's for kids to believe. Look closer.

[ QUOTE ]
I have seen no Israeli suicide bombers going into Iran, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, etc. and killing dozens of people on buses, in restaurants, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

The terrorist/suicide bombers are relatively very inefficient. Israel has invaded ALL its neighbouring countries at one time or another, practically at the rate of once every decade! Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria have all been invaded (I'm sure there were ...reasons, ask Zaxx /images/graemlins/cool.gif). Then, Iraq, Tunis, Libya have been the targets of aerial bombing runs or sabotage operations.

The number of Arab civilians (forget the soldiers) that have died because of Israeli actions dwarfs anything that Israel has suffered.

But, of course, and to use one of your phrases: There are few, if any, posts about that...

[ QUOTE ]
It's kind of like how half the world is against America.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only "half the world"?! You're an optimist.

/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[nicky g]

"I'm not sure if you missed the point of the original post or not, but if this does refer to the incident under discussion, the soldier did NOT shoot the girl in question, and it was later admitted by the only witnesses to be a hoax. "

You are wrong - the soldier did shoot the girl in question.

The argument hinges over whether or not whether approached her and as alleged emptied his magazine into her, after having already put two bullets in her head from slightly further away. Frankly, that seems immaterial to me; the taped radio exchange which indicated that the girl was killed despite the soldiers being aware that she was a child and walking away is the main factor, and there is no question he did then "confirm" the kill. From a sympatheitic soldier in a pro-Israeli source:

"After we fired, the platoon commander went out to make sure she was dead. He fired only two bullets at her from a relatively distant point, fearing she was wearing a bomb belt. He then headed back to the outpost, but suddenly turned around and fired a long burst. I saw where the body was, and in which direction he fired. It wasn't even close [to the girl]..."
Israel national News (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=76567)



The tape recording the soldier's exchanges during the incident, as played on Israeli TV, runs as follows:

"In November, the soldiers’ veracity was confirmed when Israel’s Channel Two television broadcast a military communications tape of a conversation among some of the soldiers involved.

Troops firing with light weapons and machine guns on a figure moving in the “no entry zone” quickly realized their target was a young girl. Someone in the operations room asked: “Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?” Replied a soldier in the surveillance watchtower, “It’s a little girl. She’s running defensively eastward, a girl of about 10. She’s behind the embankment, scared to death.”

Four minutes later, it was reported the girl had been hit and fallen. The surveillance tower reported, “Receive, I think that one of the positions took her out.” Operations asked, “What, she fell?” and the soldier in the tower replied, “She’s not moving right now.”

The tape records the company commander as saying: “I and another soldier…are going in a little nearer, forward, to confirm the kill...” After a pause, he added: “ Receive a situation report—we fired and killed her . She was wearing pants, jeans, an undershirt, a shirt. Also, she was wearing a keffiyeh on her head. I also confirmed the kill. Over.”

Then “Captain R” added: “Anyone who’s mobile, moving in the zone, even if it’s a three-year-old, needs to be killed.”

WRMEA Report (http://www.wrmea.com/archives/Jan_Feb_2005/0501009.html)

Despite the clear evidence of the tape, the soldier in question maintains he only "fired into the ground" when he unleashed the second volley of shots, in response to alleged gunfire from Palestinian militants that noone else seems to think were there (and why would you fire into the ground anyway?). But in addition to the tape, soldiers from the brigade claimed they saw him empty his magazine into the girl. Now they've retracted thier evidence for whatver reason, and despite the fact that the girl was killed after having been identified as a non-threatening child and that there is a taped radio exchange of the soldier confirming the kill and that the soldier's explanation for emptying his magazine is completely nonsensical, Israel decides the whole case (of "poor conduct") is undermined and noone is to blame.

Furthermore, my main point on this was that what the soldier was charged with was completely out of line with what he was alleged to have done; he was alleged to have riddled a child with bullets at close range, after she was shot in the legs and he then confimred her death. Some of the evidence for this now seems to have been undermined. But even if definitive evidence emerged to prove that the soldier in fact was honeymooning in Cyprus at the time, it doesn't change the fact that when he was first accused of having done that, the army tried to dismiss it immediately, and when he was arrested on allegations of having done that, all he was charged with were minor things like conduct unbecoming an officer. He was arrested because of the girl's death but merely charged with a few technicalities. If you arrest someone who appears to have beaten someone to death and charge them with disorderly conduct, and later discover it wasn't that person but someone who looked like them, it doesn't change the fact that you charged them with the wrong crime in the first place.

What's happened here is that: a child is shot while walking away from a base, despite the soldiers knowing she is a child and poses no danger; soldiers accuse their commander of not only killing her, but then riddling her with bullets after she was dead; a tape indicates that the soldier did indeed confirm the kill, but he absurdly claims he actually "fired into the ground" in his second volley, and that the girl may have been hit by the extra umpteen bullets by accident; the army tries to dismiss the whole thing out of hand; under pressure, the army arrests him, but charges him with minor offences unrelating to the fact that his actions killed a child; the fact that the soldiers withdraw their allegations that corroborated the other overwhelming evidence he shot her again at close range is used to let him go scott free. Meanwhile, the fact remains that a small girl was shot dead in cold blood despite posing no danger to anyone, and noone will be punished for it. Not only does this development not undermine the original story, it even further proves the absolute refusal of Israeli military and judicial institutions (not to mention media- the JP characteristically completely ignored every aspect of the case other than the late in the day corroborative allegations made by the soldiers to another paper) to properly investigate or punish any crimes carried out by occupation troops.

To sum up: the girl was first shot after haing been idenitfied as a small girl 100m from the base and hiding.withdrawing. The captain then approached her and did kill her. As he returned to the base he then turned around and emptied his magazine - he absurdly claims into the ground, others initially claimed into the child. The questions over this last action mean that noone is to blame for anything.

[Gamblor]

Already in October, IDF Chief of Staff Lt.-Gen. Moshe Yaalon told the cabinet that the girl had been dispatched by terrorists as a decoy in order to draw out soldiers and turn them into targets for terrorist snipers. Yaalon also explained that the girl was in a closed military area, and that she threw a bag at the soldiers - a suspicious move under the circumstances, even though the bag was later found to contain only schoolbooks and no explosives.

Shortly after the incident, one of the soldiers involved explained the tension under which he and his colleagues were operating:

"For several weeks now, we have been in a state of high alert due to warnings of infiltration attempts. Only two weeks ago, three of our friends were killed in Morag. With death suddenly arriving at our doorstep, we were extremely tense. We knew the terrorists were coming, we just weren't sure when. On the day in question, we spotted a child just over 100 meters from our post. At first we thought she was a terrorist, not a girl; we were sure the moment had arrived, that which we had been talking about all along. We immediately knew what we had to do: to open fire. We all opened fire.

[Gamblor]

Arabs are desperate

This is the sickest joke in the history of the middle east.

The Palestinians may be desperate, but they resorted to Terrorism and were rejectionist long before any occupation. People like Cyrus romanticize the conflict to add emotion where there is none;

History has shown that terrorism works; it brings international media attention and instant support of bleeding heart academics. Terrorism is a specific, deliberate strategy to influence public opinion in a democracy; the only place public opinion matters.

Palestinian terrorism does not result from Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza either, but from Israel's existence. The PLO was formed in 1964, 3 years before the Six Day War.

But hasn't the more recent phenomenon of suicide bombing come about because of Palestinian despair? Well, suicide bombings started only after the 1993 Oslo Accords, which gave Palestinians their best opportunity for a state so far. The numbers increased significantly after Israel withdrew from Lebanon and offered a series of generous territorial concessions via Barak.

If anything, history suggests that Palestinian terrorism is motivated not by desperation but from hope!

[nicky g]

"Already in October, IDF Chief of Staff Lt.-Gen. Moshe Yaalon told the cabinet that the girl had been dispatched by terrorists as a decoy in order to draw out soldiers and turn them into targets for terrorist snipers."

Conclusive proof. He knows this how, exactly? She was moving away from the base. How does that draw soldiers out? How could they have been hurt if they'd left her alone? How was her bag (full of school books) a threat from 100m away? What was she, a champion thrower? And when the captain did go out, why wasn't he hit by these supposed terrorist snipers?

Usual propaganda bullshit. They murdered a child who posed no threat to them, which they effectively acknowledged at the time, and noone is to be punished. Par for the course.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
"Arabs are desperate" -- This is the sickest joke in the history of the Middle East.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, they are not desperate! I was wrong. They are happy.

People who have their land taken away from them and reduced to second-class citizens in their own place are happy. You are absolutely correct.

[ QUOTE ]
History has shown that terrorism works.

[/ QUOTE ]

...Which is why it was first used by Jewish settlers in Palestine.

[ QUOTE ]
Palestinian terrorism does not result from Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza either, but from Israel's existence. The PLO was formed in 1964, 3 years before the Six Day War.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who do you think you're talking to? To some impressionable Betar inductees? Go sell it elsewhere.

The PLO is and has always been a national liberation organisation. Its aim, when it was formed, was to liberate the whole land of Palestine from the Zionists who wanted it as a land of Jews and for Jews -- only. (The PLO's aim was not to drive the Jews "to the sea", but to have a religious state that would be all inclusive. Hence, the wrath that PLO incurred from American-sponsored, tyrannical, reactionary regimes like Saudi Arabia, Jordan, etc.)

Reality forced the PLO to abandon its plans for an independent secular all-inclusive state and try for a "Palestinian state" alongside Israel.

Do you want us to believe, truly, that the Arabs and the Palestinians in particular, are some kind of exceptional humans, some beasts? That it's the fault of their DNA? That they are ...crazy? You might succeed if you repeat the lie often enough. Stranger things have happened.

[Chris Alger]

[ QUOTE ]
there were likely extenuating circumstances we weren't aware of,

[/ QUOTE ]
There you go with your imagination run wild. The only "circumstance" that's different from the accounts reported to date are whether the girl was murdered to "confirm the kill" or whether she was just murdered. That doesn't "extenuate" a thing. Israel has no right even to be in the occupied territories, much less go there and plant settlements, checkpoints and military outposts, declare certain areas "forbidden zones" and then kill anyone who strays into them. There is no dispute that IDF soldiers used an unarmed 13-year-old for target practice (17 wounds, her head basically destroyed). There is no dispute that this happened when no other hostilities were taking place, that she was wearing a school uniform, that it took place while Palestinian children were going to school, that they were aiming specifically at her. Not that making it to school, already "pockmarked by bullets," would have saved her from Israel. Another 13-year-old was killed at the school last year, and another student and two teachers were wounded by the IDF. Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1332219,00.html)

The only "circumstance" that your report refers to is whether one particular officer "confirmed" the kill at close range. That she was shot at close range multiple times while posing no threat is not disputed. Indeed, the defendant's own version of events is consistent with Palestinian eye witnesses, reported in the above Gaurdian article last October: "Yousef Breaka watched from the balcony of his second floor flat. He owns the 12 acres of bulldozed land beside the building which Iman crossed minutes before she was shot. 'The first shot came from the army post. It hit her in the leg. She was starting to walk on and then fell. She dropped her bag. They were firing, heavy shooting. I am sure she died before the two soldiers came and shot her bag and then her,' he said."

Of course, he might be "biased" against the IDF. "Mr Breaka's living room wall is decorated with the holes of nine bullets fired from the Israeli army watchtower two years ago. A tenth bullet killed his 80-year-old mother, Jindiya."

The real point of this story: Iman al-Hams's murder is ordinary course and the officer in charge of her murderers has been released from the "open arrest" he enjoyed at his base. His weapon back in his hands, he's back in business in the occupied territories, ready and willing to continue his terrorist war of territorial conquest.

[Gamblor]

People who have their land taken away from them and reduced to second-class citizens in their own place are happy

More lies. Or would you care to show me the government that represented them during all those centuries of peace and quiet? Does the northern half of Greenland really belong to the people of Denmark?

Which is why it was first used by Jewish settlers in Palestine

Are you really suggesting that the first terrorists were Jewish settlers in a fictional country? Regardless, if they were terrorists, why don't you tell us all about the government they were trying to influence?

The PLO's aim was not to drive the Jews "to the sea", but to have a religious state that would be all inclusive.

Reality forced the PLO to abandon its plans for an independent secular all-inclusive state and try for a "Palestinian state" alongside Israel.

Nu? Make up your mind!

Do you want us to believe, truly, that the Arabs and the Palestinians in particular, are some kind of exceptional humans, some beasts?

No. I want you to believe that the values and ethics and that dominate the poor, war-torn, religious, dictatorial, imperialist, Arab world, are borderline barbarian. Which they are.

[Gamblor]

was moving away from the base.

How do you know? Usual propaganda bullshit.

[Chris Alger]

[ QUOTE ]
What I honestly don't get is why occasionally when an Israeli does something wrong, theres dozens of posts here about it. On the other hand, there are few, if any, posts about the countless suicide bombings from the Arab side.

[/ QUOTE ]
For the last four years, IDF troops sent from Israel into the occupied territories have wounded or killed, on average, more than fifteen Palestinian civilians every day. Palestinain Red Crescent Society (http://www.palestinercs.org/crisistables/table_of_figures.htm). That's not "occasional." These numbers include about two killed every day, and the number killed amounts to more than five times the number of minors killed by Palestinian terrorists in Israel. Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories (http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/Casualties.asp). The perpetrators of these crimes are not "terrorists" in the conventional sense but official troops of the state of Israel, backed by the government and the majority of its population. These forces are financed, armed and politically protected, to a great degree (about 1/3 to 1/2 of Isreal's military budget), by the American taxpayer.

The better questions are how you came to believe that

(1) it is better to emphasize the crimes of the "Arab side," for which you bear no responsibility and can do little about, rather than those crimes that over which you (meaning your country) bear some responsibility; and

(2) that "the Arab side" is responsible for "countless" acts of terror while your side is responsible only for "occasional" ones?

[Cyrus]

Please read:

...The PLO's aim was not to drive the Jews "to the sea", but to have a secular state that would be all inclusive.

Instead of "secular", I misstyped "religious" -- which was not in the PLO's Charter. (For the record, a religious state in Palestine has been the avowed ambition of Zionism.)

[zaxx19]

(For the record, a religious state in Palestine has been the avowed ambition of Zionism.)

Really?? Actually thats quite opposite of the truth. Early Zionist were socialist and secularists...god your act is getting old with each passing post...you just have absolutely no knowledge and its kind of silly to watch you make a complete ass out of yourself while trying to talk about the middle east...

[Chris Alger]

Unless Judaism isn't a religion, it is against the law in Israel to be elected to the Knesset if one denies that Israel is a religious state. Your references to proto-Israelis is therefore half-truth: Israel has steadfastly refused to define "Jew" in any manner that separates nationality from religion. This was the deal the early Zionist leders like Ben-Gurion made with the religious community in order for Israel to be born. True, debate on this issue rages and many Israelis detest having to declare their religion on official documents. But they haven't gotten anywhere and issues of personal status in Israel are still determined by clerical courts, rendering absurd any notion that Israel is a "secular" state.

Israel proclaims itself as a Jewish state. Under Israeli law, a "Jew" is "a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member
of another religion." According to its Supreme Court (in 1962), "a Christian cannot be a Jew" as a matter of Israeli law. Therefore, Israel is either (1) a state of those holding to a particular religion or (2) a state of those with a particular genetic lineage, or an apartheid state. Those aren't very palatable alternatives.

[zaxx19]

Unless Judaism isn't a religion, it is against the law in Israel to be elected to the Knesset if one denies that Israel is a religious state


WTF IS THIS DRIVEL??

It isnt a religious state, bc people of all religions are free to practice or not practice as they see fit. Not only do non-jews serve in the knesset but there are members who have actively called for the destruction of Israel in the knesset....

You guys are just getting pathetically laughable in some of your ill informed attacks. I mean get serious and read...or just shut up.

[nicky g]

"was moving away from the base.

How do you know? Usual propaganda bullshit. "

Usual proaganda bullshit not only from the witnesses there but from the taped exchange of the troops who shot her, as broadcast on Israeli TV.

[Gamblor]

Can you send me a reputable link? Cause according to my uncle, nothing was broadcast about the incident on TV, in fact it was kept pretty hush hush.

Just prove me wrong, thats all.

[nicky g]

What constitutes a reputable link? I'd say I've posted several already.

Will Wikipeida do?

"On IDF recordings of the incident broadcast on Israel's Channel Two television, "Captain R" can be heard explicitly stating that he "verified the kill." The tape of the incident showed the soldiers at the outpost continuing to fire at the girl even after soldiers identified her as "about 10 years old... Captain R", however, was recorded on tape at the time of the incident saying he shot "the girl," after he had heard on his field radio that the figure was a young girl and not a "terrorist""

Iman Darweesh Al Hams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iman_Darweesh_Al_Hams)

[nicky g]

This Australian paper quotes the Yedioth Ahronoth's extracts from the tape broadcast on the programme, including, four minutes before she is first hit: "It's a little girl. She's running defensively eastward ... a girl of about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death."

'It's a little girl.' Tapes reveal troops' 'kill' (http://www.theage.com.au/news/Middle-East-Crisis/Its-a-little-girl-Tapes-reveal-troops-kill/2004/11/24/1100972401791.html?from=storylhs&oneclick=true)

I can't read Hebrew; perhaps you can confirm the veracity of the quotes from the paper.

[Kaz The Original]

"Not all Arabs are terrorists. Not even a majority of them are. However, the majority of terrorists are Arab."

PLEASE.