20/40 PP K2s out of SB

[pokerjo22]

I'm not sure about my turn bet, but after most had folded I thought my only chance to win the pot was to bet the river. How would other people have played this?


Paradise Poker 20/40 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Heroine is SB with 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 raises</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, Button calls, Heroine calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (11 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Heroine checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, MP1 calls, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Heroine raises</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Heroine bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, CO folds, Button folds.

River: (12.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Heroine bets</font>, UTG+2 calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

[bicyclekick]

yuck to the pre-flop call. bb would have been fine.

flop - fine.
turn - yuck. You're gonna get popped a large percentage of the time.
river - I'd check and hope he checks behind with a busted draw. If he called you with any sort of hand on the turn he's not mucking the river.

[Ten7offsuit]

I'd dump this preflop, you have horrible position and you're most likely dominated. Yeah, it's 5 handed, but it's still not worth calling a pf raise with in the sb IMO.

Flop looks ok, but I'd check/call that turn.

[1800GAMBLER]

I'm surprised you made such a big deal about this hand (by linking it from the other thread). Preflop i DEF DEF DEF call. Flop is standard. River is bad, there's no chance of a fold from a better hand.

Turn is close but i don't bet, i don't agree with 'you are getting popped a huge percentage of the time' It's unlikely the callers have A,x and even if they do it's unlikely they will now raise on the turn if you bet and someone calls. UTG+2 has some chance of having it but he also now folds 88 99 and even if he does have it some players wont raise it.

Lastly which most people forget, you have to compare lines. If you check it's def getting bet and you go 1 bet. If you bet it's unlikely to get raised and you go one bet. So the folding equity you need becomes tiny.

Simplifying it, if you knew it would get bet 100% of the time if you check and you knew if would never get raised if you bet then you would obviously bet without even thinking about your folding equity. So if this is the case you only need them to fold 00000000.1% of the time to show a profit.

edit: preflop i thought this was a 2/3 blind structure. I'd still call getting 6.3:1 and perfect relative position.

[slickpoppa]

I think your postflop play was perfect. I like the flop CR and you definitely needed to bet the turn and river.

Nevertheless, I think that the preflop call is terrible. I would even muck that without hesitation from the BB. The preflop raiser is UTG+2 in a 10 handed game, so I think you must respect that raise. It is much too likely that you are dominated. And even if you are not dominated, Kxo is not the kind of hand that wins monster pots.

[bicyclekick]

When i first read that you said I'd call, i knew you figured it was 2/3 structure. 2/3 makes it closer...but still...I don't like it.

Would you have called it on the button? I highly doubt it. Then you shouldn't have called it in the sb. (least that's kinda what I've been tought.) I know using 'rules' for everything doesn't make for great poker necisarily...but cmon it's k5s.

[mmcd]

I've never played the Paradise 20 game, so I don't really know its "texture" and certainly know nothing about your specific opponent, but if he's not just another online mid-limit monkey, a river checkraise here would be awesome. Bye-bye Ax.

[pokerjo22]

[ QUOTE ]
And even if you are not dominated, Kxo is not the kind of hand that wins monster pots.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was Kxs so I was playing it really for the flush potential, but I can see its a close fold. On the flop I had 14 outs, hence the checkraise, and having shown this kind of strength on the flop, I figured betting the turn wasn't to risky, especially with my outs to fall back on if I got raised. In retrospect I don't like the river bet at all.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
Simplifying it, if you knew it would get bet 100% of the time if you check and you knew if would never get raised if you bet then you would obviously bet without even thinking about your folding equity.

[/ QUOTE ]
And if we simplify it by assuming that whenever I check, magical fairies will descend from the sky and grant all my wishes, then checking is probably the better play. Bit in neither case do our simplyifying assumptions match the actual situation.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
I think your postflop play was perfect. I like the flop CR and you definitely needed to bet the turn and river.

[/ QUOTE ]
Can you explain why she "definitely needed to bet... the river"? She has a pair of deuces and her kicker is counterfeited. The only thing she is beating is queen high or worse. Do you see that paying off? If not, then you're hoping to get him to lay down a better hand? A better hand means a pair. If he called on the turn with an ace hitting, he's not folding it now on the river for one more bet especially when there is a missed flopped flush draw (which is something that we are fairly likely to have given that we check-raised the field on the flop). I don't see any benefit to betting at all, let alone seeing it as "definitely needed". Can you explain your reasoning?

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Simplifying it, if you knew it would get bet 100% of the time if you check and you knew if would never get raised if you bet then you would obviously bet without even thinking about your folding equity.

[/ QUOTE ]
And if we simplify it by assuming that whenever I check, magical fairies will descend from the sky and grant all my wishes, then checking is probably the better play. Bit in neither case do our simplyifying assumptions match the actual situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF. The reason i posted that last paragraph was because people always forget to compare lines they find an +EV line and take it, nowhere did i say that last paragraph is applied to this situation. You crack addict.

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And even if you are not dominated, Kxo is not the kind of hand that wins monster pots.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was Kxs so I was playing it really for the flush potential, but I can see its a close fold. On the flop I had 14 outs, hence the checkraise, and having shown this kind of strength on the flop, I figured betting the turn wasn't to risky, especially with my outs to fall back on if I got raised. In retrospect I don't like the river bet at all.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, I knew it was Kxs. The flush potential definitely does not justify playing this hand. You have to call 1.5 bets and you are out of position. So even if you do get your flush draw, you are not going to get as much value out of it because of your position.

Anyway, the river bet is close, but I think the pot size is enough to justify it. You might get a weak tight opponent to fold a non-ace pair. This only has to work less than 10% of the time to be profitable.

[Monkeyslacks]

The preflop call should be standard. Your relative position is great and the times you flop a flush draw alone make it worthwhile. Look at what happened on the flop here as an example of why you want the spot you're in. One of Mason's hands to talk about has him make this call(albeit it from the big blind which is of minor significance IMO) and it was not controversial at all if memory serves.

Check the turn.

edited to add:

ah the 1 chip 2 chip blind structure... This makes it closer of course. Still, odds of flopping a flush draw are 7.5-1 and you're getting 6.3-1. Add in your more exotic two pair etc. outs and your superb relative position and it is +EV and certainly not a horrible call.

[MMMMMM]

Preflop: I prefer a fold from SB, but it's an easy call from the BB. Even though moneywise it is only 1/4 bet difference, the SB is a worse spot because the BB can 3-bet (and SB does have slightly worse position throughout the hand too).

Flop: the check-raise is fine, but calling is also fine. One potential problem with the C/R is that the original bettor might 3-bet and if that happens you may lose players whilst needing to improve. The less likely you think the preflop raiser is to 3-bet causing you to lose players, the more you should be to C/R.

Turn: Prefer the check; if the preflop raiser has a big Ace you're liable to get popped here, and you don't want him clearing out the field. Also, another player might have something to raise with at this point. Too many people in the pot to try to bulldoze the hand through.

River: If he has a busted draw your deuces are good and if he has a pair you're getting called. No bet here against typical opponents in this game.