The officail "who needs school thread"

[JGalt]

I agree with ZJ on this one. He actually seemed to describe me, other then he has more drive. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
I have no high school diploma, and a year in college. Looking back after finishing the first year of college with very good grades, I realized I didn't learn anything and left. Throughout my life I have always learned better on my own (reading books & life experience). Some people are just like that.

I've grown up beleiving that in order to be a success in life, school is not a necessity. I have met people with high school and no high school education that are millionaires and even former billionaires (still very close though). I have also met a good share that have University and college degrees and masters that are millionaires. But some people it is just not necessary. Even the people that I know who have degrees there is no doubt in my mind that they would have been sucessful even without their education. Many wouldn't even classify their education as the major contributing factor in their success.

ZJ hope you have a great time in Europe as I will (in Paris now) and what we'll learn here is far more then we could ever learn in a school. Good luck.

Here's a little poll to see where people stand.

[Sponger15SB]

This is a stupid poll because the answer should be yes to all three.

[partygirluk]

[ QUOTE ]
The officail "who needs school thread"

[/ QUOTE ]

I can think of 1 person immediately.

[nongice626]

everyone keeps focusing on the money aspect of a colege degree.

what if i told you about a prince who left his castle and beautiful stomach dancers in search of truth?

each man must decide what he wants and seek it.

i am not in college cause i thought it woudl be cool to say that i was in cambodia shortly after high school graduation.

ps: youre going to die someday.

enjoy it.

[ArchAngel71857]

Rock?

"r-o-K?"

"yeah!?!?!?! what's your point?"

"r-o-C-k!"

"The C is silent."

-AA

[TimM]

http://www.hyggestedet.dk/sjovebilleder/Funny_Gallery_3/pic_shcool.jpg

[partygirluk]

Hahahahahahaha Classic!

[JGalt]

[ QUOTE ]
everyone keeps focusing on the money aspect of a colege degree.

what if i told you about a prince who left his castle and beautiful stomach dancers in search of truth?

each man must decide what he wants and seek it.

i am not in college cause i thought it woudl be cool to say that i was in cambodia shortly after high school graduation.

ps: youre going to die someday.

enjoy it.

[/ QUOTE ]

My point exactly. Some go to school because it soots them. Some don't because to them it doesn't matter. The reason I posted this is for the people who think that if you don't have school you are a failure, or missing out, or plain just don't know any better. I focused on the money aspect because that's what most people associate going to school for. When in reality that is just not the case.

[JGalt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The officail "who needs school thread"

[/ QUOTE ]

I can think of 1 person immediately.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you suggesting that I need school? If so please enlighten me as to the reasons I would need school, instead of a half assed comment.

[nongice626]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The officail "who needs school thread"

[/ QUOTE ]

I can think of 1 person immediately.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you suggesting that I need school? If so please enlighten me as to the reasons I would need school, instead of a half assed comment.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe alot of young people feel that they dont need school and then regret it later on in life. Whether or not this is a bad thing is up for debate.

Its good that you know what you want. Dont let others distract you from it. You'll learn your way only by yourself.

Dont worry too much about internet message boards.

[Bluffoon]

If you are not ready for a formal education sitting there is just a waste of time.

Some exceptional people are so talented and gifted that they can realize their dreams without an education.

I would hate to get halfway through my life and realize that a formal education would have made a difference.

[nongice626]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
everyone keeps focusing on the money aspect of a colege degree.

what if i told you about a prince who left his castle and beautiful stomach dancers in search of truth?

each man must decide what he wants and seek it.

i am not in college cause i thought it woudl be cool to say that i was in cambodia shortly after high school graduation.

ps: youre going to die someday.

enjoy it.

[/ QUOTE ]

My point exactly. Some go to school because it soots them. Some don't because to them it doesn't matter. The reason I posted this is for the people who think that if you don't have school you are a failure, or missing out, or plain just don't know any better. I focused on the money aspect because that's what most people associate going to school for. When in reality that is just not the case.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I understand you. The others dont, because they are different. Alot of people took ZJ's post as: I can make more moeny without school. When he really meant: I can achieve my goals better without school.

Choke-Dee good luck in thai

[_2000Flushes]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you suggesting that I need school? If so please enlighten me as to the reasons I would need school, instead of a half assed comment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Put your clothes back on, J. I don't think she meant any offense. She was just pointing out the irony of the mispelling in your thread title. It was funny.

-2kF

[Leo99]

Getting an education isn't going to hurt and sure as hell could help. If you have the brains and the finances to go to college, you should go. You can try and justify not going all you want but you're never going to convince yourself. Convincing yourself that you're not a loser, isn't that what your post/thread is all about? Sorry, I'm not going to tell you everything will be ok.

"Everybody dies. Enjoy it." Pretty stupid mantra if you ask me.

[JGalt]

I've already convinced myself and my life is going to be just fine. Thanks

[Michael Davis]

Who the eff is saying you have to school at age 20? Seriously, it's not an irrevocable decision to drop out.

-Michael

[Leo99]

What is the title of the thread? Is it, "Should I take a year off school to travel in Europe?" No, it's not.

[Leo99]

Ok, fine, then why did you post this thread to begin with if you have no doubts?

[banditbdl]

If you are truly convinced you learn better on our own, than you do at school than you either are taking the wrong classes or you aren't cut out for schooling. Just reading things on your own and learning them yourself has a nasty habit of giving you some general principles but leaving you lacking any true mastery of the subject. Than you end up thinking you know more than you do if you aren't required to put your knew knowledge to use (although this certainly isn't always the case). I learned much more from my professors and their lectures than I ever did from reading my textbooks, and I did in fact do a lot of reading.

I think the bigger problem is taking classes where mastering a subject isn't truly getting you anywhere. In my case I had to master subjects in college in order to build the type of academic resume required to move on to my next goal. If you don't have a goal in mind and you can't see how mastering a subject is going to help you accomplish anything you want, than motivation is inevitably going to be a problem.

[JGalt]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, fine, then why did you post this thread to begin with if you have no doubts?

[/ QUOTE ]

To enlighten, to see where my views stand against others, to gain knowledge and information. To put a number on success and education. In no way was it a way of convincing myself.

[banditbdl]

[ QUOTE ]
To enlighten, to see where my views stand against others, to gain knowledge and information. To put a number on success and education. In no way was it a way of convincing myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

The numbers detailing the bump in average yearly income that come with extra schooling are pretty staggering if you check them out.

[JGalt]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are truly convinced you learn better on our own, than you do at school than you either are taking the wrong classes or you aren't cut out for schooling. Just reading things on your own and learning them yourself has a nasty habit of giving you some general principles but leaving you lacking any true mastery of the subject. Than you end up thinking you know more than you do if you aren't required to put your knew knowledge to use (although this certainly isn't always the case). I learned much more from my professors and their lectures than I ever did from reading my textbooks, and I did in fact do a lot of reading.

I think the bigger problem is taking classes where mastering a subject isn't truly getting you anywhere. In my case I had to master subjects in college in order to build the type of academic resume required to move on to my next goal. If you don't have a goal in mind and you can't see how mastering a subject is going to help you accomplish anything you want, than motivation is inevitably going to be a problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, very good post. I left high school at the age of 16 and went to work. I worked in jobs that were related to the same field over the years. I went to college at 26 for classes related to my field of work. I did very well, but it was already information that I knew or information that just doesn't apply in the real world. My experience working in the field taught me more then I could have ever learned in the class.

[JGalt]

[ QUOTE ]
The numbers detailing the bump in average yearly income that come with extra schooling are pretty staggering if you check them out.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no doubt that education will get you more money. My point is that not everyone needs formal education to make money and that those who have the drive and ability to, can succeed without it and do just as well or even better then those that are educated.

[PokerCat69]

I don't know. Tonight I tried a new poker site. 24hpoker.
Won $88 Euros in 3 hours.
This is playing 4 50NL tables at once.

That equals: $141 Canadian. or $47/hr. A good job in Canada (meaning school was required) pays like $25/hr.
However a good job is more secure in my opinion. What if online gambling becomes illegal in 5 years?
There will be land based casinos, but what a grind that would be.
I'll say poker is about 10000000000000X better then school short term, but long term is another story.

[JGalt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The officail "who needs school thread"

[/ QUOTE ]

I can think of 1 person immediately.

[/ QUOTE ]

I get it. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]

Won $88 Euros in 3 hours.
This is playing 4 50NL tables at once.

That equals: $141 Canadian. or $47/hr.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, clearly you should quit your job immediatly.

[JGalt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you suggesting that I need school? If so please enlighten me as to the reasons I would need school, instead of a half assed comment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Put your clothes back on, J. I don't think she meant any offense. She was just pointing out the irony of the mispelling in your thread title. It was funny.

-2kF

[/ QUOTE ]

My clothes are back on. I just figured it out, all on my own as well. /images/graemlins/grin.gif And I apoligize for my rudeness.

[rusty JEDI]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The numbers detailing the bump in average yearly income that come with extra schooling are pretty staggering if you check them out.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no doubt that education will get you more money. My point is that not everyone needs formal education to make money and that those who have the drive and ability to, can succeed without it and do just as well or even better then those that are educated.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am just guessing here but i think the people making a lot of money without an education work a lot harder than those who make a lot of money with with education.

Im not much for hard work, so i'll get mine the easy way.

Also for much of college its just a big hoop to jump through to prove you are willing to put in the time and effort and have the ability to learn. That way when they hire you they know you are trainable and willing to work.

rJ

[MasterShakes]

Your poll questions just beg more questions. The answer to the first question is that it depends on the person. The other two questions depend completely upon what "education" means. Arguably, people can get an "education" without ever setting foot inside a formal school at any level.

[daryn]

by the way did anyone point out that this guy spelled 'official' wrong in his title?

[MortalNuts]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are truly convinced you learn better on our own, than you do at school than you either are taking the wrong classes or you aren't cut out for schooling. Just reading things on your own and learning them yourself has a nasty habit of giving you some general principles but leaving you lacking any true mastery of the subject.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure whether you're simply saying that everyone learns better from a combination of independent reading plus instruction than from reading alone, or whether you're instead implying that everyone learns more from lectures than from reading. If the latter, I guess I disagree pretty strongly.

I've been in lots and lots of courses, both as a student and as a teacher. There absolutely are students who are really really good at textual learning, but who are really bad at picking up information from a lecture (even a well-delivered one). An excellent professor will attempt to reach these students in other ways -- e.g., by giving them written lecture notes that supplement the textbook (if there is one), extra visual materials, etc. But that kind of extra effort is sometimes hard to come by, particularly in large survey-type classes.

I might agree that for every student and every subject there is probably a professor, somewhere, who can make that subject come alive better than the student could on his own. But for some students, that teacher may be exceedingly hard to come by, and the knowledge that he/she exists is basically useless -- given the options available to them, I really think certain students really would be much better off reading textbooks and not attending lectures than vice versa.

Your other point, about the kind of mastery you usually acquire when studying on your own, is I think more a statement about being challenged to use your knowledge than about book vs. lecture learning. That is, I doubt that someone who attended quantum field theory lectures for six months but never worked any problems in the subject would really have any better grasp of the subject than someone who just read a good QFT book for those six months. What often sets the classroom experience apart from independent study is that you're constantly having to solidify what you've already learned, by using it on problems or exams or in-class grilling by the prof or whatever. I'm not saying that has to be the case -- a highly motivated independent student could of course assign himself problems and so on, and a highly crappy instructor could likewise neglect these things -- but more often than not this is part of what sets in-class instruction apart. Of course there are also subjects for which no adequate textbook exists, and so it's extraordinarily difficult to get a background in these things by yourself -- you simply don't know which papers to look at, which people to talk to, etc.

A general comment, which really doesn't apply all that directly to your post: I think most people underestimate how genuinely difficult it is to really master a subject, either on your own or with help from instructors and the like. My phd advisor used to say that you only sort of learned something the first time you heard it in a class, no matter how good you are or how well-taught the class. Maybe you see it again a year later, and it sticks a bit more. Then maybe you have to study it for your comprehensive exam a few years later, or you have to use it in your research, and now it really begins to solidify. But you don't really, really understand it until you have to teach it to someone else. And I've basically found that to be true, unless the subject is exceptionally simple or the initial exposure exceptionally powerful.

Bah, I'm rambling. I suspect we don't actually disagree on that much -- for most people, not learning in class is probably indicative of something other than a real predisposition toward indepedendent text-based learning. The point is there are plenty of exceptions to this rule.

just my 2c.

cheers,

mn

[Eurotrash]

[ QUOTE ]
the irony of the mispelling

[/ QUOTE ]


Yikes, i'm probably getting myself in over my head here, but the additional irony is just too great /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Eurotrash]

but of course (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1684290&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&vc=1)

edit - woops, here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1684059&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&vc=1)

[_2000Flushes]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm probably getting myself in over my head here

[/ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/cool.gif

-2kF

[Eurotrash]

please spare me, I meant well. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[The once and future king]

Life is better with options. A University degree gives you these. Without a degree there are millions of opportunities you will be frozen out of.

Basicaly you have made a conscious desicion to drasticaly narrow your horizons.

Also you may want to look at average earnings of those with a degree compared to those without.

[LALDAAS]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The numbers detailing the bump in average yearly income that come with extra schooling are pretty staggering if you check them out.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no doubt that education will get you more money. My point is that not everyone needs formal education to make money and that those who have the drive and ability to, can succeed without it and do just as well or even better then those that are educated.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am just guessing here but i think the people making a lot of money without an education work a lot harder than those who make a lot of money with with education.

Im not much for hard work, so i'll get mine the easy way.

Also for much of college its just a big hoop to jump through to prove you are willing to put in the time and effort and have the ability to learn. That way when they hire you they know you are trainable and willing to work.

rJ

[/ QUOTE ]

I will agree with this statement. I never went to collage. I pullin around 70k a year (Which isnt alot anymore, well in NJ anyway), However the above statement is true. I work for my income. A friend of mine works for the same company and went to collage for 4 years and is a IT guy. If he works more then 3 hours a day actually working thats alot. I work 11 hours a day. We have the same income.

Do you need school, no!

Does it help, Yes!

It took me 8 years to get where I am by busting my arse. He had fun going to school for 4 years.

To each is own.

One thing I would like to ask is how many of you know peeps who went to school, finished, and work a crap job. I have several friends who are working in a field that has nothing to do what they spent 4 sometimes 5 years to learn and an ass load of cash.

[Duke]

The poll is retarded because you're confusing schooling with education. They're absolutely distinct.

~D

[Michael Davis]

The average amount of money made has a lot to do with the fact that people who graduate are more intelligent and have a strong work ethic. If you possess both of these qualities but don't finish school, you're going to succeed.

-Michael

[nicky g]

This thread should be retitled "the official too cool for school thread."

[BeerMoney]

I think the problem is that Americans view school as almost a sort of punishment. Our school systems are so authoritative and miserable at times.

We go to school and are forced to be silent for extended periods of time, vice principals are a--holes, etc..

We don't appreciate the oppurtunity to learn.. Instead we are being told "do your work.." Our entire philosophy towards school needs to be reevaluated.

In countries where not every one gets to go to public school, the ones who do certainly appreciate their oppurtunity at an education.

School, college, teacher -student relationships all should be looked upon as wonderful things. THE OPPURTUNITY TO RECEIVE AN EDUCATION IS A BLESSING NOT A CURSE.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
The average amount of money made has a lot to do with the fact that people who graduate are more intelligent and have a strong work ethic. If you possess both of these qualities but don't finish school, you're going to succeed.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]
If you possess both of these qualities, chances are you're going to finish school.

[Bluffoon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The average amount of money made has a lot to do with the fact that people who graduate are more intelligent and have a strong work ethic. If you possess both of these qualities but don't finish school, you're going to succeed.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]
If you possess both of these qualities, chances are you're going to finish school.

[/ QUOTE ]

[TimM]

Sounds like this book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0865714487/qid=1107792510/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-6536475-9578332?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

"1. Confusion: I teach too much, and everything that I teach is out of context. The orbiting of planets, the law of large numbers, slavery, adjectives, architectural drawing, dance, assemblies, etc.

2.Class Position: I teach students that they must remain in the class into which they were born, the class where they belong. If I do my job well, my students will be unable to imagine themselves somewhere else. They will envy and fear the upper classes, and have contempt for the lower classes.

3. Indifference: I teach children not to care too much about anything, even though they may desire to do so. I demand that my students become completely involved in my lessons, vigorously competing with each other for my favor.

4.Emotional Dependency: By using stars and red checks; smiles and frowns; prizes and punishments; or honors and disgraces, I force children to become emotionally dependent upon my praise. This ensures my power over them. My students surrender their will to the predestined chain of command. Rights may be granted or withheld by any authority without appeal, because rights do not exist inside a school. Even the right to free speech - free thought as well - is suspended within the confines of the classroom. Individuality is a contradiction of class theory.

5. Intellectual Dependency: Good students wait for a teacher to tell them what to do. This is the most important lesson that is imparted to our children in school: We must wait for other people - better trained than ourselves - to direct us and give meaning to our lives.

6. Provisional Self-Esteem: I teach children that their self-respect should depend upon expert opinion. My student's are constantly evaluated and judged. Report cards, grades, and tests all teach us that children should not trust themselves or their parents, but instead, should rely upon the expert evaluations of certified officials. People need to be told what they are worth.

7. One Can't Hide: I teach students they are always watched; that each individual is under constant surveillance by either my colleagues or myself. This forces my students to behave appropriately, because they fear that someone is watching them, and will punish them if they behave wrongly. There is no private time. Furthermore, I assign a type of extended schooling called "homework," which ensures that the effects of my classroom travel into private households. When students might otherwise use free time to learn something unauthorized from a parent, through exploration, or by apprenticing to some wise person in the neighborhood, they are kept occupied with homework."

[Michael Davis]

Of course. That's why someone who has these things but leaves for other reasons has a lot of things that just don't apply to him.

-Michael