Doyle bluffs Gus Hansen with nothing & taunts him... then overplays QQ

[That guy]

Did you see the rub-it-in look Doyle gave Gus when Doyle bluffed him out holding 78o on a K 3 J 5 board?? Doyle laughed and showed Gus his cards and said something that I couldn't make out with the announcer voice over...

all that was entertaining and good but then Doyle overplays the QQ with a massive overbet...

Doyle showed Gus no respect for ever having any cards and played his QQ like a fool. Sorry but I was happy to see Gus stick it to Doyle Brunson.

Gus caught cards and repeatedly won the big pot coin-flips. But that is always necessary to win a tournament.

Here was the overplay

Hansen A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifA/images/graemlins/club.gif raises to $35,000
Brunson in SB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gifQ/images/graemlins/spade.gif calls

Pot $87,000
Flop: 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Doyle Checks
Hansen bets $40,000 (a little less than 1/2 the pot)
Brunson raises all-in to $650,000

650/127 = 5x+ the pot

Gus says: ~ 'that is a weird ass play'
Brunson says 'you don't see much chance of folding?'
Gus says: 'no, I can't really see how I can do it'

Call

[jojobinks]

this is a beautiful result of what doyle and the boys think of gus, and gus exploited it the entire series. early on, lederer would raise all in over the top of gus, holding medium strength starting hands. gus busted him, i think twice, in exactly the way he busted him tonight (AQ v A9 tonight, i think).

early in the series doyle said something like "gus is good, but he hasn't played with guys like us very often." i'm sorry to say it, and i really do respect doyle, but ho hum.

he played a lot like he says to play in SS, with huge overbets to "put the other guy to the test for all his chips." i think we see what the danger is in that.

am i right?

[ismisus]

Yes its really dangerous to go all in with QQ on 3 8 10 rainbow against a player who doesn't lay down many hands....

lol

[Yeknom58]

"doesn't lay down many hands" and "Plays lots of hands" are two entirely different things and shouldn't be confused.

[Michael C.]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes its really dangerous to go all in with QQ on 3 8 10 rainbow against a player who doesn't lay down many hands....

lol

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it was stupid. Believe it or not Gus does not win three WPT tournaments and now this one by being an idiot. He likes to make calls like on the Bad Boys tourney just to set up overplays like Doyle made. Gus would not have called Doyle with any hand that wasn't beating him. What, do you really think Gus would call here with A 10? Read his Card Player interview, read Daniel Negranyu's opinions on Gus and you'll see this is EXACTLY the kind of play Gus' image lets him take down, and Doyle fell for it just like Gus' friend and training partner Lederer did...

[Ray Zee]

doyle played it right, he just got unlucky here. doyle is a super player and picked a good spot to double up or win it there. it didnt work out. thats life in the fast lane.
what was he supposed to do. call and check again on fourth street. or raise 200,000 and leave himself with 4 and check on fourth street, or fold if a scare card comes. no he did great but lost. dont get so mesmerized by players and think they are gods. they arent.

[tdarko]

hey zee why is your name on fire?

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
this is a beautiful result of what doyle and the boys think of gus, and gus exploited it the entire series. early on, lederer would raise all in over the top of gus, holding medium strength starting hands. gus busted him, i think twice, in exactly the way he busted him tonight (AQ v A9 tonight, i think).

early in the series doyle said something like "gus is good, but he hasn't played with guys like us very often." i'm sorry to say it, and i really do respect doyle, but ho hum.

he played a lot like he says to play in SS, with huge overbets to "put the other guy to the test for all his chips." i think we see what the danger is in that.

am i right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Easy to "exploit" people when you have AA vs QQ and the board comes ten high....

You REALLY think that if Gus had the QQ there and Doyle the AA, gus lays down? No Fuc[/b]king chance. Sometimes, it's just the cards. You have never once seen Gus get away from a decent hand in the face of adversity on TV, period.

[Ray Zee]

i am hot. thats what happens when you are a god.

[ismisus]

[ QUOTE ]
"doesn't lay down many hands" and "Plays lots of hands" are two entirely different things and shouldn't be confused.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not confusing it. Based on the hands they showed, he really rarely folded to a raise.

If he had A 10, he would probably do his facial expression put Doyle on J9, and call. Then explain that he called because of the Ace out, 10 out plus a backdoor flush. So that 7 outs!!! More than enough for him. Plus there's money already in the pot, so he's being a dog 3.5 to 1 is not that bad, if thats the case, which is likely not because Doyle has J9

[Michael C.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have never once seen Gus get away from a decent hand in the face of adversity on TV, period.

[/ QUOTE ]

You rarely see anyone get away from a good hand on TV. Because that would mean bet, fold, pot taken, and TV wouldn't show it. Maybe if there were more unedited shows we'd have a better idea of what Gus was likely to do in that situation. But I think 5x the pot was just wrong. I really don't think Gus is going to call Doyle with A 10 for that many chips, so basically anything Gus calls with is a winner. (And even if you do think he calls with A 10 or JJ, those are the only two hands you can beat). And considering the kind of cards he plays, there are a lot of hands he could be holding that are better than QQ. I just don't see the math in betting 5x the pot when the only hands that call you beat you. And I don't think Doyle bets out like that against anyone else but Gus.

[REL18]

"doesn't lay down many hands" and "Plays lots of hands" are two entirely different things and shouldn't be confused.
God this is retarded comment since he does both

[That guy]

Ray, are you saying he had to go broke with QQ (and a deep stack) because it was Gus??

Gus's strategy worked to perfection. He also needed to catch cards for it to work. But everyone needs to catch cards to win when you are playing vs the best players in the world...

Lederer said on Full Tilt tonight that he thought Doyle made a poor play...

I respect your opinion a lot Ray so I am curious why you liked his play. If you have a large stack, why overbet the pot like that with QQ... yes you are likely to have the best hand but why play for all your chips... Gus could have 2-pair, a set, or KK or AA... the only thing Doyle beats is JJ and maybe AT...

just curious why the tone of your post is that Doyle HAD to go bust there...

personally, I think Doyle overplayed his hands the entire way on PSI. He called off all his chips with Ace - 9 kicker vs Howard AQ the previous episode. But admittedly, I am just a peon so really just looking for more comments defending Doyles play here...

[Daliman]

I saw Barry Greenstein get away from more than a few hands the episode where BG pwn3d GH but lost to him, and making a person fold a good and possibly even superior hand would/does ALWAYS make good TV, and therefore I would think has a high % chance of getting broadcast, so that shoots a hole in that theory.

As far as Doyle's overbet? Well, what if gus had an 8, 10, or flush or str draw? If Doyle is bluffing then gus is getting 610/777. Lets look at it as if he hassome of these combinations and doyle is not bluffing,(which, as Harrington says, is ALWAYS a 10% chance is these situations, thus making Gus's proclivity to calling with draws and such even a stronger play).

If he calls he is getting 777k for 610k, thus 1387k in total pot. K7d is going to win vs QQ 46% so 46%x1387k=638k, a +ev situation.

If he has 98 or T9 with one Diamond he get .25x1387 about 347 equity, -EV if behind, but if doyle is bluffing, that adds a fair amount, 60k or so value if only 10% tho. Straight draw is only 2% higher against QQ specifically, so also not likely.

But, as you can see, if he had a hand like K7d, compared to how he normally plays, that would be an easy call, right?

Wrong.

He's not gonna stick all his $$$ in on a hand where he has a slight mathematical edge at best. Just like the hand where he flopped an open-ended SF draw vs Lederer's flopped set; it was obvious he HAD to catch, and pushing had almost exactly the same EV as folding, so he folded.

Contrast this, btw, to the infamous 8Td call vs Esfandiari where he said he put him on a small pair. HE made a HUGE call for almost all his chips where his absolute best case scenario was that he was a slight underdog. Oh, I forgot, that tournament didn't mean anything.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not a big fan of Doyle's play here, but there is a LOT more to it than meets the eye.

[That guy]

<<I'm not a big fan of Doyle's play here, but there is a LOT more to it than meets the eye.>>

I don't know, I don't think Doyle put him on Kx-diamond or anything else and did all the various math... Doyle just wanted to beat him so bad and saw QQ and thought that it MUST be the best hand vs Gus... I understand your EV calculations, I just don't think that is what Doyle was thinking...

btw, I would say that it would have been unlikely for Johnny Chan to have gone bust with QQ with a large stack...

I don't know the right way to play QQ in that situation... maybe all the money was destined to go in at some point during that hand anyway. but it seems like there has to be a way to play that hand with a large stack and not go broke on just a pair (albeit, an overpair)? what about min-raising the flop??

its funny because Doyle has always hated AQ for a similar reason; when you flop top pair Q, you can go broke vs KK or AA. here, he goes broke with his good old queens...

[Sluss]

[ QUOTE ]
personally, I think Doyle overplayed his hands the entire way on PSI. He called off all his chips with Ace - 9 kicker vs Howard AQ the previous episode. But admittedly, I am just a peon so really just looking for more comments defending Doyles play here...


[/ QUOTE ]

Remember the board paired in that hand with Howard. Can't put Lederer on a 3, so the only two hands that beat Doyle are AK & AQ. Doyle didn't get to where he is by seeing ghosts under the bed.

[Michael C.]

[ QUOTE ]
doyle played it right, he just got unlucky here. doyle is a super player and picked a good spot to double up or win it there. it didnt work out. thats life in the fast lane.
what was he supposed to do. call and check again on fourth street.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think betting 5x the pot on an overpair is a good play. Sure he can double up, but look how much he's risking to do it- that just isn't good poker. Like I said earlier, if Gus calls him here, the chances are he's beat. If Gus is going to fold here, I don't think it would cost you that much to find out. Doyle himself in SS says you should bet 1/3 of your stack in that situation, committing the other guy if he calls without committing yourself. If he does that here and Gus comes over the top, he should throw away the hand. I don't care if it's vs. Gus or the biggest fish on the planet, anyone can get a hand that beats an overpair, and you don't bet 5x the pot and go broke on QQ. Most likely Doyle indeed wins the pot on that bet, but he risked too much to do it, and broke the rules he himself stated in his book.

[3rdEye]

[ QUOTE ]
Ray, are you saying he had to go broke with QQ (and a deep stack) because it was Gus??

Gus's strategy worked to perfection. He also needed to catch cards for it to work. But everyone needs to catch cards to win when you are playing vs the best players in the world...

Lederer said on Full Tilt tonight that he thought Doyle made a poor play...

I respect your opinion a lot Ray so I am curious why you liked his play. If you have a large stack, why overbet the pot like that with QQ... yes you are likely to have the best hand but why play for all your chips... Gus could have 2-pair, a set, or KK or AA... the only thing Doyle beats is JJ and maybe AT...

just curious why the tone of your post is that Doyle HAD to go bust there...

personally, I think Doyle overplayed his hands the entire way on PSI. He called off all his chips with Ace - 9 kicker vs Howard AQ the previous episode. But admittedly, I am just a peon so really just looking for more comments defending Doyles play here...



[/ QUOTE ]

When you're playing against a guy who is very likely to have the worst hand after you flop undercards to QQ, why not put him all in? Gus' history at the PSI indicated that he would play something like JT, KT, 99, etc; the same way. I don't see how Doyle could NOT have gone broke on this hand. What is he going to do, fold QQ against Gus Hansen when there are no overcards? I'm sure that Doyle had 2 good reasons for pushing: 1) Given Gus' history, Doyle is VERY likely to have the best hand; and 2)On a draw-heavy flop, why not charge Gus the maximum if he's drawing?

[Michael C.]

[ QUOTE ]
I saw Barry Greenstein get away from more than a few hands the episode where BG pwn3d GH but lost to him, and making a person fold a good and possibly even superior hand would/does ALWAYS make good TV, and therefore I would think has a high % chance of getting broadcast, so that shoots a hole in that theory. [ QUOTE ]


Yeah, you're probably right here. Good point.

[ QUOTE ]

But, as you can see, if he had a hand like K7d, compared to how he normally plays, that would be an easy call, right?

Wrong.

He's not gonna stick all his $$$ in on a hand where he has a slight mathematical edge at best.[ QUOTE ]


So at the end of it all, aren't you basically saying the same thing that I did: the only hands Gus is going to call Doyle with are the hands that beat QQ, and that Doyle should not have bet 5x the pot? It sounds like we are in agreement, no? And Doyle should have realized that, but I think he was too caught up with the player as opposed to the right play.

[FishBurger]

The QQ v AA hand just shows how much Doyle fears Gus. Even the once-great Doyle Brunson knows he has no chance of outplaying Gus, so his best chance is to risk it all on an overpair.

I doubt Doyle would have made such a massive overbet against any of the other players at the table. Doyle was just another Chinook at the table hoping not to get too embarassed by Gus. Unfortunately, Doyle ended up looking like the biggest fish at the table.

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think betting 5x the pot on an overpair is a good play. Sure he can double up, but look how much he's risking to do it- that just isn't good poker. Like I said earlier, if Gus calls him here, the chances are he's beat. If Gus is going to fold here, I don't think it would cost you that much to find out. Doyle himself in SS says you should bet 1/3 of your stack in that situation, committing the other guy if he calls without committing yourself. If he does that here and Gus comes over the top, he should throw away the hand. I don't care if it's vs. Gus or the biggest fish on the planet, anyone can get a hand that beats an overpair, and you don't bet 5x the pot and go broke on QQ. Most likely Doyle indeed wins the pot on that bet, but he risked too much to do it, and broke the rules he himself stated in his book.

[/ QUOTE ]

The question, then, is how would the hand have played out if he had made a pot-sized bet?

My guess is that Hansen smooth calls and then Brunson has to bet out again on the turn, at which point Hansen is going to put Doyle to the test for all of HIS chips, and Brunson will call.

OR Hansen comes over the top immediately, at which point Brunson will put him all-in.

As much as I generally don't like the push, here it seems it might just have been an option between electrocution and lethal injection.

[D.H.]

[ QUOTE ]
When you're playing against a guy who is very likely to have the worst hand after you flop undercards to QQ, why not put him all in?

[/ QUOTE ]

Simply because there aren't a lot of hands that are worse than yours that he will call you with.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
I saw Barry Greenstein get away from more than a few hands the episode where BG pwn3d GH but lost to him, and making a person fold a good and possibly even superior hand would/does ALWAYS make good TV, and therefore I would think has a high % chance of getting broadcast, so that shoots a hole in that theory. [ QUOTE ]


Yeah, you're probably right here. Good point.

[ QUOTE ]

But, as you can see, if he had a hand like K7d, compared to how he normally plays, that would be an easy call, right?

Wrong.

He's not gonna stick all his $$$ in on a hand where he has a slight mathematical edge at best.[ QUOTE ]


So at the end of it all, aren't you basically saying the same thing that I did: the only hands Gus is going to call Doyle with are the hands that beat QQ, and that Doyle should not have bet 5x the pot? It sounds like we are in agreement, no? And Doyle should have realized that, but I think he was too caught up with the player as opposed to the right play.



[/ QUOTE ]
Also, maybe the overbet was a set up hand; Doyle figuring Gus had nada and would make it seem like he was pushing him around. As I said before; with these guys, everything is not always specific EV to that hand.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
The QQ v AA hand just shows how much Doyle fears Gus. Even the once-great Doyle Brunson knows he has no chance of outplaying Gus, so his best chance is to risk it all on an overpair.

I doubt Doyle would have made such a massive overbet against any of the other players at the table. Doyle was just another Chinook at the table hoping not to get too embarassed by Gus. Unfortunately, Doyle ended up looking like the biggest fish at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]


Keep reading the forums. You obviously know nothing about poker and have a lot to learn.

[jojobinks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The QQ v AA hand just shows how much Doyle fears Gus. Even the once-great Doyle Brunson knows he has no chance of outplaying Gus, so his best chance is to risk it all on an overpair.

I doubt Doyle would have made such a massive overbet against any of the other players at the table. Doyle was just another Chinook at the table hoping not to get too embarassed by Gus. Unfortunately, Doyle ended up looking like the biggest fish at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]


Keep reading the forums. You obviously know nothing about poker and have a lot to learn.

[/ QUOTE ]

come on, daliman. if you're gonna flame him for that, at least explain what you mean. he was specific (kinda) "doyle made the play because he didn't want to deal with gus on the turn and river, and hoped to take it down right there [my paraphrase]."

at least respond to that, instead of saying that he "obviously knows nothing about poker"

[FishBurger]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]

The QQ v AA hand just shows how much Doyle fears Gus. Even the once-great Doyle Brunson knows he has no chance of outplaying Gus, so his best chance is to risk it all on an overpair.

I doubt Doyle would have made such a massive overbet against any of the other players at the table. Doyle was just another Chinook at the table hoping not to get too embarassed by Gus. Unfortunately, Doyle ended up looking like the biggest fish at the table.



[/ QUOTE ]


Keep reading the forums. You obviously know nothing about poker and have a lot to learn.



[/ QUOTE ]

come on, daliman. if you're gonna flame him for that, at least explain what you mean. he was specific (kinda) "doyle made the play because he didn't want to deal with gus on the turn and river, and hoped to take it down right there [my paraphrase]."

at least respond to that, instead of saying that he "obviously knows nothing about poker"

[/ QUOTE ]

What hands would Gus call that bet with? I don't think he would call that with TPTK, because Doyle could easily have jacks or better. I don't believe he would call with just a straight or a flush draw because he would be too far behind.

I could only see Gus calling that bet with a pair and a flush draw, which means that Gus would be about a 51/49 favorite. If Doyle is willing to risk his stack with those odds, what does that say about how much Doye fears Gus? If you are willing to risk your entire stack against another player (Doyle was second in chips at the time) on a race, then you are basically admitting that the other player has you outclassed.

What hands do you think Gus would call that bet with?

[woodguy]

Pretty straight forward hand really.

DB has a good hand against a known LAG who is raising about 1/2 the hands according to the commentator.

DB takes a chance that the BB is going to come along with a flat call, but takes that chance to not give away the strength of his hand.

DB then c/r's all in with a massive overbet to show weakness in order to illicit a call from GH.

GH has AA, DB gets cold decked and is out.

They both played the hand well.

Cards Happen.

Regards,
Woodguy

[Scooterdoo]

Gus's style and the success he has with it really showed yesterday. We can argue that he had a lot of good cards, but the interesting thing to me was how he always got paid off big with his cards. The other players were always over playing their hands against him assuming he had little or there were a few times when they did raise before the flop with big hands to get him involved (assuming he would raise) which allowed Gus to draw out against them. Sure he got good cards, but his aggressive style really allowed him to get paid off on these hands when most players would have only won moderate pots.

[Scooterdoo]

I don't think Doyle made the bet because he was 'scared' of Gus and wanted to take it down right there. I think he assumed that since Gus is so aggressive he would call the bet with top pair or possibly even a draw. Doyle clearly felt he had the best hand there and wanted to get maximum value. The point I made earlier in this thread is that he wouldn't have done that against other players because he wouldn't have thought they would call his massive bet. Gus's aggressive style allowed him to get maximum value out of the bullets.

[Walter Pullis]

Hey guys! You are over-analyzing the QQ vs AA hand. Both players played it right, weighing all the circumstances.

[That guy]

fwiw,

Both Lederer and Ivey thought it was a 'bad' play...

Me: Phil, was Doyles QQ play the right play or a bad play
Ivey: Bad

[lehighguy]

As people said already, Doyle can't lay this down unless a K or A shows up. AT SOME POINT IN THIS HAND ONE OF THEM WILL GO ALL IN. This talk about him laying down the hand is nonsense. So doyle did what he thought was right, pushed him when he thought he had the best hand. Take the following hand from my own game:

1/2 No limit
Hero has 44 in MP. Several limpers see the flop.
Flop is 4,6,7.
UTG bets 5 (ultra loose passive), several callers including hero.

Turn: 2
Pot: between $40-50
UTG bets 25. Hero has read on him that says he might have straight. UTG would only bet with a hand, but that have could be top pair or two pair or anything. Nevertheless, hero doesn't want to throw away trips. If he calls this round and villian has straight he will simply have to call all in river. However, if villian is behind or on draw he will check/fold river. Also, there are others in hand that could be on draw. So hero raises to $50. Villian calls. RIver is unimportant, villain checks, hero checks. Here he turned over the straight and I saved myself another $25.

However, I think you'll agree the raise->check line is better then the call->call line. Doyle is in an even worse spot then I was. He has three street to worry about rather then two. Wheras I could check river, if Doyle showed weakness at any point in this hand then he would have been put all in anyway. And he has a hand that he could call with.

Anyway that's my opinion. 20/20 hindsight is great huh.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]

The QQ v AA hand just shows how much Doyle fears Gus. Even the once-great Doyle Brunson knows he has no chance of outplaying Gus, so his best chance is to risk it all on an overpair.

I doubt Doyle would have made such a massive overbet against any of the other players at the table. Doyle was just another Chinook at the table hoping not to get too embarassed by Gus. Unfortunately, Doyle ended up looking like the biggest fish at the table.



[/ QUOTE ]


Keep reading the forums. You obviously know nothing about poker and have a lot to learn.



[/ QUOTE ]

come on, daliman. if you're gonna flame him for that, at least explain what you mean. he was specific (kinda) "doyle made the play because he didn't want to deal with gus on the turn and river, and hoped to take it down right there [my paraphrase]."

at least respond to that, instead of saying that he "obviously knows nothing about poker"

[/ QUOTE ]

What hands would Gus call that bet with? I don't think he would call that with TPTK, because Doyle could easily have jacks or better. I don't believe he would call with just a straight or a flush draw because he would be too far behind.

I could only see Gus calling that bet with a pair and a flush draw, which means that Gus would be about a 51/49 favorite. If Doyle is willing to risk his stack with those odds, what does that say about how much Doye fears Gus? If you are willing to risk your entire stack against another player (Doyle was second in chips at the time) on a race, then you are basically admitting that the other player has you outclassed.

What hands do you think Gus would call that bet with?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've addressed this in opther threads, and don;t care to get into yet another pissing match with somone who not only doesn't understand poker, but doesn;t seem to know who Doyle Brunson is. Figure it out for yourself.

[betgo]

When you can see the hole cards on TV, it is pretty obvious Gus has AA, so Doyle should fold QQ. What can this Brunson guy be thinking?

If Doyle had made a pot sized raise, Gus would probably have pushed and Doyle would have called. He is getting almost 2-1 on his money at that point. If not, one of them would have pushed on the turn, and the rest of the money would have gone in.

There is some point in pushing rather than putting in enough chips so you are pot committed, like the 10xBB rule preflop. The push looks like a semibluff with some kind of draw or an attempt to protect a hand like AT. Doyle likes to make this kind of play with various kinds of semibluffs. He might cause Gus to call with something like top pair. Gus would probably also fold hands like AK or second or third pair, which have a good chance of beating QQ.

Doyle could have reraised preflop or made a smaller raise on the flop. He would have busted out anyway. Whether or not Brunson's plays are the best, it is probably more useful to look at why he made those plays than to say how we could have played it better. Players like Brunson and Hanson are going to make some suprising plays, because they don't play ABC poker.

[swarm]

All the money was going into the pot after that flop with how this was played pre-flop.

Brunson really likes to be in control of the game and Gus is a major obstacle to Doyle doing that. With Hanson raising every other pot and just folding to a Brunson bluff I think Doyle got "caught in the momentum" and made a mistake. However, with the circumstances they way they where all the money was getting in there anyway.

Brunson was trying to set a tone at the table to take control away from Gus, where he is dangerous and got caught...

You have to give credit to Hanson here though, his style gets people out of their normal startegy routines and gets them to make mistakes. If he times his bluffs and occassionally hits some cards early like he did how can you put the man on anything for the rest of the night.

[niwotyalpi]

originally posted by FishBurger
[ QUOTE ]
The QQ v AA hand just shows how much Doyle fears Gus. Even the once-great Doyle Brunson knows he has no chance of outplaying Gus, so his best chance is to risk it all on an overpair.

I doubt Doyle would have made such a massive overbet against any of the other players at the table. Doyle was just another Chinook at the table hoping not to get too embarassed by Gus. Unfortunately, Doyle ended up looking like the biggest fish at the table

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. It is gonna be hard for anyone to make a more ignorant statement in 2005. I nominate this for the dumbest post of the year.

[Deftoner]

[ QUOTE ]
originally posted by FishBurger
[ QUOTE ]
The QQ v AA hand just shows how much Doyle fears Gus. Even the once-great Doyle Brunson knows he has no chance of outplaying Gus, so his best chance is to risk it all on an overpair.

I doubt Doyle would have made such a massive overbet against any of the other players at the table. Doyle was just another Chinook at the table hoping not to get too embarassed by Gus. Unfortunately, Doyle ended up looking like the biggest fish at the table

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. It is gonna be hard for anyone to make a more ignorant statement in 2005. I nominate this for the dumbest post of the year.

[/ QUOTE ]

I second that. Quite possibly the dumbest post of the new century. Doyle fears Gus...lmao.

[StableHand]

That hand was clearly rigged...
"Gus Hansen" is worth more ad-$$$ in 2005 than "Doyle Brunson"!

[ QUOTE ]
Certainly the game is rigged. Don't let that stop you; if you don't bet, you can't win.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Ezcheeze]

I looked through the thread and I don't think anyone mentioned this but if you take into consideration the hand that Doyle bluffed Gus out on then this QQ hand makes alot of sense. I bet thats a big reason why Doyle was so aggressive on the QQ hand, he was hoping Hansen would think he was bluffing again. Hansen would have to at least give STRONG consideration to the chance that Doyle is semibluffing or even on a complete bluff like the other hand. With that in mind I think Doyle played perfectly.

-Ezcheeze

[TheJackal]

Well I do believe it had to do with Gus Hansen's loose image and Doyle not wanting him to draw out on him cheaply. Although this is the exception to the rule, because most of the time Gus folds his draw and Doyle picks up the pot, but I think he didn't have to shove his whole stack in to accomplish this (although I don't see how Doyle would fold to a re-raise, so maybe it was correct). It reminds me of a hand earlier in the PSI where Johnny Chan was playing against Gus, and Gus made his flush on the end and Johnny made the correct read and folded. Johnny had been bluffing, but he was bluffing with the best hand, and not only that he was very aggresive with it (JC is a great player, that hand reminded me of that because I think he knew Gus didn't have him beat until Gus actually had him beat). Any chance he would have played his hand the same way against the other players? I doubt it.

Doyle was in a tough situtation, he had QQ against a LAGy player who just happened to have AA on that hand. Just like Johnny Chan, Doyle was trying to push Gus off his hand/draw, but ran into a better hand. Doyle was unlucky.

[zeero3]

This post cracks me up. It's one thing to criticize someone's game, it's another to act like you're above that person. I think playing a little more poker and a little less criticism will improve your game. Seriously, maybe you didn't see the hand where Gus flopped an OPEN-ENDED STRAIGHT FLUSH DRAW on the FLOP and FOLDED to Lederer's all-in push on the flop.

PS. I am not a fan of Gus Hansen, but he is good, and his plays deserve respect in MY book, but I guess we're reading different books eh?

[snapfc01]

i completely agree with this man and after reading this whole thread i'm surprised it took someone so long to say it... doyle set up this move and it worked... however he was unlucky to run into a monster. on the other side... gus set up doyle to make a move like this to were if he did have a monster he'd win big... both players are amazing if you ask me

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
This post cracks me up. It's one thing to criticize someone's game, it's another to act like you're above that person. I think playing a little more poker and a little less criticism will improve your game. Seriously, maybe you didn't see the hand where Gus flopped an OPEN-ENDED STRAIGHT FLUSH DRAW on the FLOP and FOLDED to Lederer's all-in push on the flop.

PS. I am not a fan of Gus Hansen, but he is good, and his plays deserve respect in MY book, but I guess we're reading different books eh?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if you read enough around here rather than making snap judgements, I mentioned this very hand a couple of days ago in a similar thread. THe point of that hand was simple; even IF Gus was drawung live to more than 2 outs, his EV was essentially the same as folding, as he audibly and commendably figured out.

I've never once said Gus is not a great, creative, imaginative player. I've also never said my MTT game is anywhere near his, so I don;t know where you got that inference. As far as playing a little more poker and a little less critcism, well, i already play for a living, and this IS a discussion board, so both of your comments there are pretty dumb.

I really don't know what book yer reading.

[ChipWisperer]

I am going to throw out all of my books that advocate a Tight/Aggressive approach (or at least modify my approach). I believe that Gus' style forces opponents to overplay their hands as Doyle did. I don't think he would have lost all of his money to Howard, or Chip Reese, or probably any other pro of that stature. You cannot put Gus on a hand, which along w his ability to compute implied odds, makes him the most dangerous player on the planet.

I wonder if Doyle put him on a nut flush draw and wanted him to pay dearly for it? (I am a neophyte, playing only for a year, so you all may be laughing). If he did put him on that draw, the only hand Gus would call him w would probably beat him.

[jojobinks]

good luck with that style. there are a few players that do very well with it. DN and GH are more than a little sharp, though, and they make decisions postflop more than a little well.


[ QUOTE ]
I play with Gus in side games where one million dollar swings are very rare, yet I have seen Gus get stuck a million and get even in the same session -- three different times!

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.barrygreenstein.com/ghansen.htm

T/A style might make less money. it's better in tournaments, of course. that being said, the above quote tells you what you'll have to deal with, playing that way.

[t_petrosian]

Not exactly sure why Doyle "looks like an idiot" here as some have suggested. If Hansen calls with JJ (doubtful), suddenly Brunson looks like a genius. If Hansen folds for some reason here figuring he doesn't want to flip coins when he can obviously outplay everyone, then Doyle again looks like a genius. 98% of the time in these situations, Gus is going to have some little cards with a pretty good draw with that kind of flop. Doyle realizes he can get outplayed and probably makes the right mathematical decision given Gus' history. No way Gus can call that bet with anything but a set or the overpair. The likelihood of the set or overpair here is very small compared to other hands (drawing hands) out there. Doyle made it expensive to draw and ran into a big hand...it will happen 2% of the time...oops.

By no means did Doyle play this hand like an "idiot."

[That guy]

What about Brunson raising Gus $70k on the flop?

Gus would then have likely moved all-in. Then Doyle has to decide what he wants to do. He would then have to consider what the range of Gus move-in hands is in this spot?? Would Gus do this on a draw? Maybe a pair and a flush draw or AK/AQ suited... Yes on AA KK. Yes on a set or 2 pair.

If Doyle didn't have that much in chips, then moving-in on the flop is fine here. But Doyle had a huge stack. Are people really saying that Doyle HAD to go broke with a deep stack on QQ??? I am not saying this was a no-brainer play and moving-in here was terrible. But it seems to me that many great players could find a better way to play this hand.

Simply saying, 'Gus is playing every other pot' is falling right into Gus's master plan of getting your monsters paid off.

I would be curious on Barry Greensteins thoughts on this particular play by Doyle.

What about smooth calling the flop and making a sizable bet on a non-flush turn card? With 1 card to come, a flush draw is now dead and you could feel better about folding to an all-in re-raise.

I admit that playing deep-stack NL tournament poker is not my expertise so I defer to others... but surely there is an alternative way to play this hand. I bet if BarryG had the deep stack or Johnny Chan had the deep stack, they would have played this hand much better. Maybe they would have gone broke too -- but maybe not.

Personally, I don't like going broke on QQ with a deep stack. Short stack? yah, gamble it up. Deep stack? different ballgame.

[jeffraider]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I don't like going broke on QQ with a deep stack. Short stack? yah, gamble it up. Deep stack? different ballgame.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly what I was thinking. I can't believe so many people think this is a hand that Doyle MUST go broke on. It's likely, I think, that I would go broke here, but then again, I'm not Doyle Brunson. I think Doyle is such a good player he needs to give himself a little more time to get a read/good idea of how strong his QQ is against Gus. I mean, against a smaller stack or if he was smaller, then sure, but he needs to play with caution against the only guy who can break him. Overplayed.

[sammysusar]

I agree with an earlier poster that said doyle was disguising his play to look like a bluff. (i.e. the only was to get gus to lay down a hand is a big overbet where there is no mathematical justification of a call). doyle is hoping gus thinks it is a bluff and calls if he has any part of the flop. i think it is a pretty high level play by doyle he just was unlucky that gus happened to have AA. it wwas a great way to try and play a huge pot with what is under most circumstances the best hand.

[That guy]

<<doyle is hoping gus thinks it is a bluff and calls if he has any part of the flop. i think it is a pretty high level play by doyle he just was unlucky that gus happened to have AA.>>

after again listening to the interview with Doyle after the hand, I think even more that Doyle made a serious mistake. He said he thought Gus would have called with a flush draw... I just don't think Gus would have given his chip position. but I guess we won't know that.

Gus did make a terrible call with AT-suited vs BarryG so maybe Gus is that bad. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[patrick dicaprio]

[ QUOTE ]
Players like Brunson and Hanson are going to make some suprising plays, because they don't play ABC poker.


[/ QUOTE ]

an excellent point as usual and probably the best reason why you cant trust what you see on TV when evaluationg plays like these.

Pat

[niin]

[ QUOTE ]
I doubt Doyle would have made such a massive overbet against any of the other players at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if you listened to the interview with Doyle afterwards, that's exactly what he said. He said that he'd seen Gus call hands in those places with weaker hands than his QQ, and figured he'd get a call in many cases where he was winning. It just happened he ran into a monster.

[Daliman]

Also, considering Gus called 570k more or so into a under 700k pot HU with JT to end end, yeah, i'm thinking gus is gonna call with a lot. Fairly pathetic play by him in many spots this tourney.

[3rdEye]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When you're playing against a guy who is very likely to have the worst hand after you flop undercards to QQ, why not put him all in?

[/ QUOTE ]

Simply because there aren't a lot of hands that are worse than yours that he will call you with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gus had shown a propensity to call with much worse than QQ in this sort of a situation.

[Stoneii]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes its really dangerous to go all in with QQ on 3 8 10 rainbow

[/ QUOTE ]

I need an up to date definition of rainbow?

[Kevmath]

It's a flop of 3 different suits.

Kevin...

[jomatty]

against gus there is no way doyle can lay down this hand. gus plays so many hands that it will also be difficult to know if he is still best if a scary turn comes. coupled with the fact that gus has been willing to call big bets with hands worse than QQ in this situation and i think its a brilliant play.
basically the reason i think he played it that way was because if he is beat he is going to get broke but if he is ahead moving all in gives him the greatest chance of not getting broke in the hand. there is enough money in the middle to fight for, he cant realisticlly fold to gus, so moving in is really the "safe" way to play it. if gus has him beat he gets broke but at least this way if hes ahead he gives himself the best chance to win the pot and not get outdrawn.
matty

[muckdumper]

I think they all made cash tru series,and are good friends.it was a T.V. fire up the crowd thing..does doyle always do it????maybe to small guys /images/graemlins/mad.gif he has respect and old enough to say so-what i'm rich baby.he made that play many times before and said pocket Q's are difficult

[VoxGibson]

LOL my thoughts exactly (assuming i caught on to the sarcasm) i would have done the same thing, i think brunson wanted the call, and i think he knew he'd get it.... i cant disagree with his logic there, against other players, i think doyle would have slowplayed my queens a bit, which may have saved doyle some money... but against a guy who's calling about everything....

I love gus hansen and i love doyle, but i really fealt gus was more lucky than good in that last tourney...

i was hoping i'd get to see these guys all play at there best, instead of just racing each other....

i honestly fealt the hand of the game was TJ's 92 when he said "i think both my cards are live"