Playing against amateurs not the way to learn...

[Metalhead3201]

Well I decided to start to play online since it's hard to get real life games going since everyone is so busy. So I bought into empire poker for 50 and played .5/$1 tables. I've been reading up on poker and reading a lot about situations on this site and I'm finding that it is not helping my poker game online. For example:

I think a lot more about what the other players might have against what I have. One particular case on a .5/$1 table I was at, I had A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. On the flop was a 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gifA /images/graemlins/club.gif. I check to see what the other player has (only one other left in the hand at this point). He raises, I call because I don't want to give away my hand. On the turn it is 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gifA /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. I raise on the turn, he reraises, I raise back, he calls. Next, the river card is a Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Ok, there's no straight or flush draw. I figure I have the best hand unless he's got pocket pair. Well he does, he's got QQ and was raising the turn with QQ pocket pair with both a K and a A on the table.

Now from reading what people have posted on this site, if you don't hit your set by the turn, your odds of hitting it on the river are next to nothing, so you don't call, let alone raise unless you're trying to fool someone. I would run into this sort of thing a lot on the .5/1 tables and I figure it's because they're mostly amateurs who play a messed up game of poker where odds aren't considered. Is the game more realistic on the higher stakes tables or is everyone a moron online? I never ran into this sort of "cross my fingers for the river card" playing style in real person games. If someone who playes higher stakes could tell me if they run into this at their tables or not it would help out a lot, I'm considering forgetting all about online play.

[shadow29]

Online poker is rigged. Duh.

[Mammux]

When you flop two pair on a dangerous board like that (flush and straight draws), you want to bet. He would have folded and you would have won the hand. He played it decently if he thought you had a flush or straight draw.

-Magnus

[cardcounter0]

Considering how badly you played this hand, I think you could learn a lot playing the .5/$1 tables.

[RoyalLance]

A should have bet or check-raise you flopped two pair. The other guy must have believed his pair was good when you only checked and called. It will either make him aware you have at least a pair of Aces or King, and may eithe fold or call. On the turn he may have thought you hit a pair with the seven or that you were bluffing sice you did a check. You had lost your mental edge over your opponent once you checked you two pair.

[jtr]

I suggest moving up to at least $5/$10 or preferably the $15/$30 game on Party immediately.

[mosquito]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I decided to start to play online since it's hard to get real life games going since everyone is so busy. So I bought into empire poker for 50 and played .5/$1 tables. I've been reading up on poker and reading a lot about situations on this site and I'm finding that it is not helping my poker game online. For example:

I think a lot more about what the other players might have against what I have. One particular case on a .5/$1 table I was at, I had A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. On the flop was a 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gifA /images/graemlins/club.gif. I check to see what the other player has (only one other left in the hand at this point). He raises, I call because I don't want to give away my hand. On the turn it is 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gifA /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. I raise on the turn, he reraises, I raise back, he calls. Next, the river card is a Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Ok, there's no straight or flush draw. I figure I have the best hand unless he's got pocket pair. Well he does, he's got QQ and was raising the turn with QQ pocket pair with both a K and a A on the table.

Now from reading what people have posted on this site, if you don't hit your set by the turn, your odds of hitting it on the river are next to nothing, so you don't call, let alone raise unless you're trying to fool someone. I would run into this sort of thing a lot on the .5/1 tables and I figure it's because they're mostly amateurs who play a messed up game of poker where odds aren't considered. Is the game more realistic on the higher stakes tables or is everyone a moron online? I never ran into this sort of "cross my fingers for the river card" playing style in real person games. If someone who playes higher stakes could tell me if they run into this at their tables or not it would help out a lot, I'm considering forgetting all about online play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you say you normally play 30-60?

[eric1]

playing on line can be a lot different than a live game. im no high roller but playing in a .5 $1 game people are not going to respect a raise in first position and subtle moves like that. I have found that most people who play in the low limit games on line or live are playing for entertainment, and u should think about why you are playing the game as well. If you are wanting to really make money and that is the only reason you are playing i suggest moving to a higher stakes game. You will still get sucked out on even in the highest games though.

[David K.]

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn it is 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gifA /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. I raise on the turn, he reraises, I raise back, he calls. Next, the river card is a Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Ok, there's no straight or flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[BluffTHIS!]

Aside from the correct comments of the previous posters pointing out how badly this hand was played and how you couldn't even read the board for a gutshot straight draw possibility, this is just the tired old argument that if you can't beat bad players then you should find bigger tighter games with better players who 1) will more often have you dominated, in this case by a set, 2) will outplay you more often when you hold a marginal hand, and 3) won't pay you off when you do have the best hand, thus insuring you win small pots and lose larger ones.

Get a grip.

[TwoShedsJackson]

[ QUOTE ]
Well he does, he's got QQ and was raising the turn with QQ pocket pair with both a K and a A on the table.


[/ QUOTE ]

Arf - I like how you try to imply he was the one who played badly when you check top two pair (Aces and Kings, no less) on that board. Well done.

[Dangergirl]

If you play the rest of your hands as badly as this I can see why you lose. Get more aggressive.

[Dov]

He didnt want to give his hand away. Cut him some slack. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[Cooker]

If you can't crush the Party .50/1. game (or any of the other sites low limit games), you can't beat anything. The beauty of playing against terrible players is that they make ridiculous mistakes. When you play against better players, it will be you making the mistakes and you will lose money even faster.

You played this hand terribly by the way. You gave a cheap card on a flop that had numerous draws (flush and gutshot straight). Your deceptive play on the flop worked and then blew up in your face when your opponent decided he had the best hand and out drew you. If I had QQ I would have put you on a probable flush draw since only a terrible player would check and then call top pair with an obvious flush draw on the board. I probably slow down on the turn after being bet into and reraised, but I would definitely go to the river as I think most players here would given the flop action. I wonder what the preflop action was like.

[CORed]

First of all, you didn't mention what the preflop action was. It should have been capped preflop (both you and the person with QQ should have been raising). You flopped top two pair on a board with flush draws and straight draws. You have a strong but vulnerable hand. If the preflop action was what it should have been, you do have cause to be concerned that you are up against a set. There is also a good possibility that you are tied with another AK. Nonetheless, you should play very agressively on the flop. You have to charge the straight and flush draws. If you are against a set, you're going to lose a lot. That's poker. You will cost yourelf more by playing weakly when ahead than you will by playing agressively when behind. When you check and call on the flop, and bet the turn, it looks like you'r drawing, or trying to steal on the turn. Your opponent probably figured he was ahead at this point. Had you bet out(and reraised if raised) on the flop and turn, your opponent might have folded with two overcards on the board. As it happened, he guessed wrong on the turn and got lucky on the river. BTW, his chances of hitting on a set are not "next to nothing" He has two outs out of 45 remaining cards. He will hit his set bout 1 time in 22.5. This means that drawing for the set if you know you're behind is usually a money losing play, not that it will never happen.

One more thing. You want opponents who make mistakes. That is how you make money. It is true that it is harder to put bad opponents on a hand, because there actions are often illogical. That, however, is more than compensated for by the money they will give you by making bad decisions. In fact, your opponent played much better than you did on the hand in question. After you checked-called the flop and bet the turn, he incorrectly assumed he was ahead. He got lucky and won the hand.

Moving up in stakes at this point in your poker development will only cost you more money. You will learn valuable skills at the low limit games. It is true that you will have to make adjustments when you move up. However, you need to learn the fundamentals first, and that will probably cost you some money. The tuition will be much cheaper at the low limit games. The loose games with bad players are the easiest to beat. They can be frustrating at times, because you will get a lot of bad beats, but in the long run you are much more likely to come out ahead than in toughter games.

If you are determined to move up to higher stakes, please PM me the site you play on and your user name. I will be happy to give you some advanced lessons. It is only fair to warn you that they will be expensive, though.

[Metalhead3201]

ok, so I check/called the flop, what is wrong with that? We were the only 2 players left in the hand, and I wanted to sucker him in for a big pot later. If I bet the flop, it probably give him an idea that I have at least a Ace or King pair, which would likely cause him to fold and I wouldn't win a very big pot. So I check/called, saw the turn and it didn't change the hand much, so since the bets double at the turn I raised, he reraised like I wanted. He just happened to get lucky and hit his set on the last card. What I'm saying is that I've read on these forums of people saying that if you don't hit your set by at least the turn then you should probably fold, especially when at least a higher possible pair is on the table than your pocket pair. So I figured most players would fold instead of praying for the set on the river. I don't see how I played that hand horribly at all, I'm not as agressive, but when I get a nice hand on the flop I try to play it so I can win the best pot I can when I'm close to sure I'm going to win. The preflop betting wasn't happening, we had BB/SB, everyone else folded. If I played the hand horribly then I had been previously misinformed on this site. But I appreciate the replies and hopefully the advice will help my play. Thanks.

[CORed]

If you had an uncoordinated board (one without straight or flush possibilities) and a small pot, slowplaying top two pair heads-up is not unreasonable. However, it would be better to check-call the flop, check-raise the turn rather than to check-call, bet. However, top two pair, heads up on an uncoordinated board, and a small pot is the only time you should even think about slowplaying two pair. It's just too vulnerable a hand to get tricky with. If you never slowplayed two pair, you wouldn't be making too big a mistake. Lot's of people routinely slowplay with two pair. At least 90% of the time, they're making a mistake.

On the board you had, slowplaying two pair, even heads up, is a major mistake. Your hand is vulnerable. If it was raised preflop, which I assume it was given that you had AKs and your opponent had QQ, especially if muliptle raises went in preflop (in fact, if it wasn't capped, or at least threebet, preflop, either you or your opponent played badly preflop) you already have a pretty big pot. You want your opponent to fold here. If you get tricky, he is much more likely to draw out on you. Besides, I don't get it. You checked the flop because you didn't want him to fold, then you complain when he didn't fold and drew out on you. You succeeded in you goal of not giving away your hand, and it may well have cost you the pot. I don't know whether your opponent would have folded QQ if you had played agressively or not. I will grant that if his cards were face up, the slowplay would have been reasonable, as he only had two outs against you. However, you didn't know that on the flop.

At .50/1.00, with lots of calling station opponents, slowplaying even a monster will often cost you money. You don't need to get tricky with this type of opponent. Most of the time, they're going to call.

[Metalhead3201]

alright, thanks for the tip, I will play that hand more aggressively from now on. I'm just used to playing real life games and the types of players I'm used to playing against wouldn't draw me with those cards on the table. Anyways thank you.

[Hellmouth]

[ QUOTE ]
alright, thanks for the tip, I will play that hand more aggressively from now on. I'm just used to playing real life games and the types of players I'm used to playing against wouldn't draw me with those cards on the table. Anyways thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]

At low stakes you should be very aggressive. You want opponents who make mistakes, particularly the kind that call when you raise. You should only slow play hands that are extremely unbeatable like a flopped nut flush etc. On the board were cards that made you likely to get drawn out against but you slow played. What if your opponant had suited J10s? You did not see all of the hidden outs that your opponant might be drawing to that could beat you.

Dont worry though. Keep reading the books. Look into Small Stakes Holdem. It has great explinations of a lot of concepts that you might find helpful.

Greg

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]
What I'm saying is that I've read on these forums of people saying that if you don't hit your set by at least the turn then you should probably fold, especially when at least a higher possible pair is on the table than your pocket pair. So I figured most players would fold instead of praying for the set on the river.


[/ QUOTE ]

But you didn't know he was drawing at a set. By playing passively, he put you on a draw and correctly tried to charge you to make it. He saw you trying to steal the pot on the turn and raised you. Once he's done that, he's going to call your reraise, though I'm betting he didn't like it .

I'm still not sure what happened preflop, but if you're saying it was one bet preflop, then neither of you had any reason to think the other had much. Which leads me to the point out that you should have been worried about those draws - especially the flush draw after the flop.

[ QUOTE ]

I don't see how I played that hand horribly at all, I'm not as agressive, but when I get a nice hand on the flop I try to play it so I can win the best pot I can when I'm close to sure I'm going to win. The preflop betting wasn't happening, we had BB/SB, everyone else folded. If I played the hand horribly then I had been previously misinformed on this site. But I appreciate the replies and hopefully the advice will help my play. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, against a single player you're not going to build a big pot. Just try to take the thing down and move on. As has been pointed out, top two on that board ain't unstoppable. He didn't have to hit a 22.5:1 shot, given other possible hands there were a lot of things to beat you. Giving the free card was pretty horrible.

Secondly, where on this forum did you see someone give credible advice that you should slowplay top two on a scary board?

Regards,

T

[CORed]

With a board full of draws, you want your opponents to fold. They are getting correct odds to call one bet on the flop with most decent draws.

[BradL]

[ QUOTE ]
Cut him some slack.

[/ QUOTE ]

You gotta feel bad for the poor guy, he just doesnt know any better.

-Brad

[BradL]

[ QUOTE ]
ok, so I check/called the flop, what is wrong with that? We were the only 2 players left in the hand, and I wanted to sucker him in for a big pot later.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whats wrong with that is that most of the time its a big pot later you'll be the one getting suckered. With such a coordinated board you must bet this flop.

-Brad

[K C]

I'm going to throw in here even though I've only read about half the replies so far. Everyone is saying that he played badly here. I disagree. This line probably gets the most money in the pot, which is what you're after here with a hand like this. The guy had 4 outs total to beat you got God's sake - you can't say that it's better to run this guy out earlier in the hand because you're scared to get drawn out on. 9 times out of 10 you're going to win with this hand against his, and you don't want to cut your profit on the 9 to try to prevent losing #10. This will have you coming out with a lot less money in the end. No one likes to lose hands though or ever get drawn out on /images/graemlins/smile.gif

In regard to the original question, it's true that players are worse at the small limits like this, but that's what you want. You need to think in terms of the overall picture, and not an isolated hand here and there. The worse the decisions of your opponents are, the more money you stand to make of course.

KC
kingcobrapoker.com

[SeattleJake]

I didn't read this whole thread... But I am constantly reminding myself not to pick up bad habits just because they win at the lower limits.

I teach kids Chess, and point out to them how to defend against Scholar's Mate (a four-move checkmate). This little ditty wins many a game at the beginning levels, but it would be crushed by more experience opponents.

These are in your repetoire from a learning aspect only, sort of like tic-tac-toe for WOPR.

[masse75]

To begin, I love 2+2. I've loved reading this site. I bought SSHE and found out that they had a web forum. But I grow weary of "did I play this correctly because I lost" questions.

General consensus: small stakes players are morons. Trying finesse plays generally doesn't work. I know...because before reading SSHE, I lost my initial stake, so now I'm honing up on play money (much akin to selling body fluids) until my wife says I can throw more in.

Most importantly, remember that the odds were IN YOUR FAVOR. This doesn't mean you have 100% ODDS OF WINNING. Anyone else ever been sucked-out? I was crushed twice tonight by gutshot straight flush draws against my nut flush. As soon as you realize you're going to take a kick to the groin every once in a while, it makes it easier. Manuever and make them pay for their mistakes. Minimize your own.

A lot of good advice in these posts, especially about the futility of building a pot heads-up.

[Gunsmoke]

Personally it looks like you are the amateur the way you played that hand.

I would have tried to take the pot down with that dangerous flop. Dont get fooled into thinking you have the nuts, you can be easily done on the turn.

You needed to give him really bad pot odds there and take the pot down. These aren't the kind of hands you will normally win huge pots with because people will be drawing on the turn and river to crack your 2-pair.

[djoyce003]

I think I disagree with the majority of people here piling on this guy for not raising the flop. If we raise and take down the pot on the flop we win the minimum, but lose the minimum. If we call, then raise the turn we win the maximum. I repeatedly read "you want to raise because of the coordinated board...flush and straight draws."

WHEN HAVE ANY OF YOU AT PARTY .5/1 SEEN ANYBODY FOLD A FLUSH DRAW OR A STRAIGHT DRAW FOR 1 BET ON THE FLOP? I HAVE NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER SEEN THAT.

The way he played it, he got a double bet in on the turn which is the best he could hope for. His opponent was drawing to 2 outs. He got lucky, next hand. I think he optimized his potential winnings here. The biggest risk on going for the turn checkraise would have been if his opponent checked behind, which is what I would have done with the 2 queens.

[k_squared]

[ QUOTE ]
This line probably gets the most money in the pot, which is what you're after here with a hand like this. The guy had 4 outs total to beat you got God's sake - you can't say that it's better to run this guy out earlier in the hand because you're scared to get drawn out on. 9 times out of 10 you're going to win with this hand against his, and you don't want to cut your profit on the 9 to try to prevent losing #10. This will have you coming out with a lot less money in the end. No one likes to lose hands though or ever get drawn out on /images/graemlins/smile.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

KC, I agree that you want to get the most money in the pot, and the fact that the guy was holding QQ means that their wier only 2 outs, and you will win the vast majority of the time, but how can you put him on that hand? More realistically we would have to put him on a range of hands that includes flush and straight draws, and so the outs picture would look more like 3-4 if we were thought about the range of possible hands he might have rather than the particular hand he DID have.

That being said, I agree that calling the flop doesn't seem that off to me (more to follow). Furthermore, a lot depends on how much money is in the pot to determining whether or not you should bet out on the flop. If it is a big pot (capped pre-flop) you are probably better to try to take the pot down than giving someone a shot at picking up that big pot. On the other hand, this definately is not a loarge mistake against a single opponent.

-k_squared

[k_squared]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I disagree with the majority of people here piling on this guy for not raising the flop. If we raise and take down the pot on the flop we win the minimum, but lose the minimum.

[/ QUOTE ]
This makes no sense at all... in terms of losing the minimum. I will assume you mean we will lose the maximum because our opponent will be able to get in another raise... but even this is not entirely accurate, because to lose the maximum they would get the raise in on the turn for a double sized bet.


[ QUOTE ]
If we call, then raise the turn we win the maximum. I repeatedly read "you want to raise because of the coordinated board...flush and straight draws."

WHEN HAVE ANY OF YOU AT PARTY .5/1 SEEN ANYBODY FOLD A FLUSH DRAW OR A STRAIGHT DRAW FOR 1 BET ON THE FLOP? I HAVE NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER SEEN THAT.

The way he played it, he got a double bet in on the turn which is the best he could hope for. His opponent was drawing to 2 outs. He got lucky, next hand. I think he optimized his potential winnings here.

[/ QUOTE ]
I totally agree that calling the flop is a good strategy. It takes a small edge against a would be draw, and turns it into a much larger edge with only the river card to come. What I don't like is the betting out on the turn. The problem with this is that if you are trying to invest in a deceptive play then you need to believe it is against an opponent this will actually work against! If you are not going to value raise the flop then you need to be confident he will bet out on the turn... so that you can check-raise him. Calling, then betting when a blank comes out sends HUGE warning signs off in my brain because it is a big change in the amount of aggression, with no obvious cause! You got lucky that QQ wanted to bet so aggressively at you, on the turn that was a gift given how you played it. It was just unfortunate he hit one of his 2 outs on the river.

[ QUOTE ]
The biggest risk on going for the turn checkraise would have been if his opponent checked behind, which is what I would have done with the 2 queens.

[/ QUOTE ]
That is a risk, but that is the play you initiate by calling on the flop. If you intend to bet out then why try to hide the strength of your hand? If the person who raises you is willing to check (for a free card play), then you made a mistake in just calling on the flop (a mistake that happens to us all). You definately don't want to give a free card, but if your opponent is prone to making free card plays then you should punish him for going for his draw by raising the flop.

I like checking the flop for two reasons. One is that you maximize your winnings, but minimize your losings by waiting to put a raise in until you have a much larger edge (that is if a scare card doesn't come). You also disguise the strength of your hand, and someone with a weak ace, or even a pair of kings might now play you the whole way! The vast majority of players who bet out the flop at this level will bet out the turn if it is checked to them (because people play junk way to far into hands), and most will call you down when you check-raise them and then bet!

In summary. I don't think you played the hand awfully, but I think you need to be more clear on how what you are doing on the flop relates to what you do on the later rounds. You blew your load too early on the turn, and got lucky that he raised you back. Think about how your opponent will react to your play... strength from no where is a weird thing to see and will often put the brakes on.

-k_squared

[Cooker]

I agree that I was too harsh in my initial post about his play, and slowplaying top 2 pair isn't terribly bad since draws will call anyway on low limit party tables. The main reason I was so harsh is because this post is really just a bad beat story, and not a very good one. I have had much worse suckouts against me as I am sure most of us have. However, I understand that when a player sucks out on me that just means I am outplaying him and will get the money back eventually. Another reason to be harsh is that this guy essentially got exactly what he wanted and then comes whining about getting drawn out on. I really don't fault the guy with QQ for playing his hand the way he did given the flop slowplay. And finally we get another "I am just too good to beat the low limits" title. Well guess what, the better you are, the easier it should be to crush the low limits.

[RoyalLance]

[ QUOTE ]
WHEN HAVE ANY OF YOU AT PARTY .5/1 SEEN ANYBODY FOLD A FLUSH DRAW OR A STRAIGHT DRAW FOR 1 BET ON THE FLOP? I HAVE NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER SEEN THAT.


[/ QUOTE ]

That is so true I must admit.

[ QUOTE ]
The way he played it, he got a double bet in on the turn which is the best he could hope for. His opponent was drawing to 2 outs. He got lucky, next hand. I think he optimized his potential winnings here. The biggest risk on going for the turn checkraise would have been if his opponent checked behind, which is what I would have done with the 2 queens.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have never seen anyone checked for river card with queens against a flush draw in any limit of real money hold'em, not even in penny poker.

[Yosemite Mark]

I have to agree with Cooker here. A lot of attention has been spent analyzing if the OP made a mistake slowplaying top two pair with a coordinated flop. While I think that is a mistake, I do not think that was his biggest one. When you chose to slowplay, a good thing can happen (players that would have folded to strength stick around, give you action, and lose more money then they would have normally) as well as a bad thing (players that would have folded to strength stick around, give you action, then hit miracle cards to win the pot). The OP's biggest mistake was making a conscious decision to play one way, knowing that there was a chance that the negative thing can happen, and then getting irrationally upset when it did. It's disappointing to lose a pot like this, but if you think you made the right +EV moves, you need to put it behind you and start thinking about the next hand.

[EarlCat]

[ QUOTE ]
ok, so I check/called the flop, what is wrong with that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Someone tell me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that check/calling is almost always incorrect. You either check because you have a crap hand and intend to fold to any bet, or you check because you have a good hand and intend to raise any bet.

I think check/calling here showed weakness. Mr. QQ probably put you on a draw, and decided his pair was worth taking to the river.

[royaltrux]

Something that hasn't been addressed by anyone. What were your prior reads on the villian? Is he your typical party fish, calling station? Because if he is you made the worst mistake in attaining your goal of "getting the most out of him".

These players at .5/1 will go to the river with an amazing array of hands regardless of raises or what have you. You missed so many bets in this by trying so hard to get the maximum that you ended up shooting yourself in the foot.

Anyone that is telling you that you played this hand ok, good, fine etc. are delusional. All of you are losing many bets that are yours for the taking.

You keep going on and on about how these posts stress that if you don't get a set by the turn you should turn into a passive folding automaton. NEWSFLASH!!!! Your opponents don't read poker forums. They don't read poker books. They are there to have fun and win a little money.

By how the posts ran it seems you were both in the blinds and there was no raise preflop. If this is true then I want both of your ID's so I rack up huge pots everytime you let me in LP with suited connectors and I hit the flop better than you. If you take a look at any of the books that this site publishes (I guess you do since you're here) they are with us in saying you completely misplayed your hand on all streets.

Not to flame, but to explain.

[RoyalLance]

Did anybody notice the topic starter acutaully called a flush possibility a "flush draw" and an opening bet on the flop a "raise". This guy has a lot more to learn than most of you think.

[zephed56]

No one has really mentioned it yet, except for that one guy. I'm going to repeat for you.

YOU MUST RAISE THIS PREFLOP! 90% of your opponents at this level will call you anyways, so you might as well bet it. Calling is their favorite thing to do.
Also, a SB open raise screams of blind steal. This will also increase the chances you get called.

And please describe your hands better.

This pot should have been capped preflop, resulting in a large pot. Which would have made it more correct for you to fastplay your hand.

You should also search "+value +bet".

[mistrpug]

[ QUOTE ]
Someone tell me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that check/calling is almost always incorrect.

[/ QUOTE ]

In general, you're right that check/call isn't a strong strategy, but there are times when check/calling is actually the correct play. Be careful not to generalize and never do it because at times you'll making the wrong play for no good reason.

[CORed]

I would agree that if you knew your opponent had queens, the slowplay would be a good line, because he doesn't have a lot of outs, and with two overcards on the board, he's likely to fold if you show strength. The problem is that he didn't know his opponent held qeens, and this was a coordinated board, and there were a lot of possible draws that you don't want to give cheap cards to. On an uncoordinated board, slowplaying top two is reasonable.

[flopwell]

/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
With a board full of draws, you want your opponents to fold. They are getting correct odds to call one bet on the flop with most decent draws

[/ QUOTE ]

Yknow, you're HU. You don't have to worry as much about draws. Especially if there was alot of action preflop it's very unlikely the opponent has a str8 draw which would be a gutshot. Odds are, the poster would be way ahead on the flop.

No one is folding a flush draw here for anything. This isn't a multiway pot we're dealing with. We don't even know how big the pot is. (still working my way down the thread)

If the pot is small, it's not a tragedy to have the guy hit a miracle on the turn since we'd be risking little (small pot) to gain a bet or 2.

Quit being so paranoid about a draw in a HU, possibly small pot. This could easily not be a 'do anything to win the pot' spot he's in yet.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
But you didn't know he was drawing at a set. By playing passively, he put you on a draw and correctly tried to charge you to make it. He saw you trying to steal the pot on the turn and raised you. Once he's done that, he's going to call your reraise, though I'm betting he didn't like it .


[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't this be justification for his play? The guy, according to you, totally misread the posters hand if this were the case.

[ QUOTE ]
but if you're saying it was one bet preflop, then neither of you had any reason to think the other had much. Which leads me to the point out that you should have been worried about those draws - especially the flush draw after the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

HU, especially in a small pot if it was unraised, draws are less of a factor. If it was unraised that'd be what? 1BB in the pot? You're really worried about protecing that?

[ QUOTE ]
where on this forum did you see someone give credible advice that you should slowplay top two on a scary board?

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be much more credible if we were talking about a multiway pot, wouldn't it?

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of good advice in these posts, especially about the futility of building a pot heads-up.


[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Because everyone is scared of losing a small pot? Is it about dragging pots or the quality of the pots we drag?

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
More realistically we would have to put him on a range of hands that includes flush and straight draws, and so the outs picture would look more like 3-4 if we were thought about the range of possible hands he might have rather than the particular hand he DID have.


[/ QUOTE ]

Based on what opponents actions are you putting him on these hands? Just seeing the flop? If that's the case, there's a better chance the board didn't hit him.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I never ran into this sort of "cross my fingers for the river card" playing style in real person games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Evidently you haven't played too much live. You can find this play at all levels.

Don't be one of those mopes that wants to only play against 'quality' opponents. That's not where the money is. That's where the ego is. People playing like crap and chasing? That's poker. Learning against 'amateurs', whatever that means, is learning how to take beats and figure how you're profitting from them. Sound easy? It will be frustrating as hell during the 'learning' process especially when it happens for about a month str8.

In your hand, look at how much the guy paid for his 2 outer on the turn. Who cares if he sucked out on you. He paid a heavy toll, but got there. It happens. Did he collect 66 big bets when he dragged the pot? Not even close. Not even in the ballpark.

Don't complain about getting action on your good hands. The alternative is to make the minimum. Wouldn't that be fun?

b

[jimymat]

You misplayed the hand. Noi big deal. He put you on a draw the way you played it so ypou had him trapped. You just got unlucky. Also at that level there not going to release the QQ. Even with the A K on the flop there going to check call all the way. Thats poker get use to it. Bad beats happen to good players more than bad players. Ive hardley ever drawn out on some one where I was behind big on the flop. its not my style. I always make a big hand and let them chase me.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I figure it's because they're mostly amateurs who play a messed up game of poker where odds aren't considered.

I'm sorry, but you raised preflop with AKs, hit top 2 on a coordinated 2-tone flop and just check-called and you're calling your opponent a moron?

There's only one reason for not beating a given level of poker - you're not good enough to beat that level. Sorry to sound harsh, but you make money from people who call too much and stay too long with stupid cards, not from people who "respect your raises" and fold correctly.