basic flop play in loose O8 games

[BadBatsuMaru]

I think I have pretty decent starting requirements in O8, and I'm doing pretty well with the basic fit or fold strategy. I just have basic questions about play on the flop in pretty loose games with say 5 people to the flop on average.

How good is top 2 pair? I assume this is usually worth seeing the turn for a single bet as long as there is only one low card on the board. I would also assume that you should fold top 2 pair if there are two low cards on the flop (and you don't have the low). But say I flop top 2 pair and I'm first to act in front of four players; do I bet out?

What about flopping top/bottom pair? Would it be fair to say it is worth seeing the turn for one small bet if I have good position (given that there aren't 2 low cards on the flop)?

What about a marginal draw to high and a marginal draw to low? I often see situations where I think my high + low possabilities are decent, but I'm generally afraid that my hand looks deceptively good and I'll probably only improve to a 2nd-best high or low.

How good is an open-ender? Stay in for one bet as long as I'm drawing at the full pot?

What about a 4-flush? I never want to draw at one if it's not going to be the nuts. I wouldn't want to draw at a flush with 2 low or a pair on the flop, and even if the flop is pretty safe, people do stay in with runner-runner low draws, and I have trouble deciding if I should fold when the river pairs the board.

I'd like to post a few trouble hands, but Bison's converter doesn't seem to work for O8. Are you guys adding most of the details manually?

[Beavis68]

in really loose games, I wouldn't stick with a marginal high hand unless you have a good low draw too.

[BadBatsuMaru]

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in really loose games, I wouldn't stick with a marginal high hand unless you have a good low draw too.

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What are you calling a marginal high?

[Beavis68]

I think that top two is marginal.

[Moneyline]

OK, I'll take a stab at some of your questions... All this, of course, is IMHO... feel free to disagree

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How good is top 2 pair? I assume this is usually worth seeing the turn for a single bet as long as there is only one low card on the board. I would also assume that you should fold top 2 pair if there are two low cards on the flop (and you don't have the low). But say I flop top 2 pair and I'm first to act in front of four players; do I bet out?

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In a multiway pot I would rather not bet out in a loose game, but if your opponents are also playing a "fit or fold" type of flop strategy then I'd strongly consider betting. Also, of course, you have to consider the particular flop. There is a big difference between top 2 on a board of J /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif than a board of K /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Back up possibilities like gutshots, backdoor flushes, and runner runner lows all improve your hand. There are still plenty of times I'd stay in the pot with top 2 when 2 low cards flop, but it depends upon things like the texture of the flop, my opponents, and whether or not I have a good (not necessarily nut) low draw.

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What about flopping top/bottom pair? Would it be fair to say it is worth seeing the turn for one small bet if I have good position (given that there aren't 2 low cards on the flop)?

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I like this hand a lot less than top 2. You can easily lose to a bigger 2 pair, and you are also more likely to lose to a bigger boat if you lower card pairs. In multiway pots I definitely want to have a lot more going for my hand.

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What about a marginal draw to high and a marginal draw to low? I often see situations where I think my high + low possabilities are decent, but I'm generally afraid that my hand looks deceptively good and I'll probably only improve to a 2nd-best high or low.

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I think these situations are more profitable than most tight players give them credit for. You may not win if you hit your card, but you also have a good shot at scooping in some of these situations. Depending on exactly what your draws are, you may even want to raise in these situations if you think you can knock out other marginal hands that are slightly better or the same as yours. This is an area of your game where I'd recommend posting your hands, because whether to raise, call, or fold depends quite a bit on the situation.

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How good is an open-ender? Stay in for one bet as long as I'm drawing at the full pot?


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Again, you have to look at the flop texture and your other possibilities.

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What about a 4-flush? I never want to draw at one if it's not going to be the nuts. I wouldn't want to draw at a flush with 2 low or a pair on the flop, and even if the flop is pretty safe, people do stay in with runner-runner low draws, and I have trouble deciding if I should fold when the river pairs the board.

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I have no problem drawing to non nut flushes when my hand has other features, but by itself I don't think the hand has much value. With a pair on board I don't think it's worth drawing to just a flush draw. If the pot is big I think it's okay to draw to the nut flush when 2 low cards flop... IMO it's a pot/implied odds decision. On the river I wouldn't fold the best flush if the board pairs unless the action gets really heavy.

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I'd like to post a few trouble hands, but Bison's converter doesn't seem to work for O8. Are you guys adding most of the details manually?

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I think reads and paying attention to the game is vital to 08 success, so I think if you are going to use the converter you should add a lot of info about the other players in the pot.