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AtticusFinch

02-06-2005, 02:39 PM

Sometimes I wonder about the old saw about it often being better to push PF to avoid difficult decisions on the flop, and then a hand like this comes along and reminds me.

I meant to reraise all-in PF, but ended up clicking the raise button too early.

I was actually more scared of MP3 than CO, thinking he might have limped with Ax. Looking at my stack, considering the chances I was up against two underpairs, and the odds of getting Ace-Little to fold to a push given the PF raise, I decided I'd just pretend I HAD pushed PF. Foolhardy? Perhaps. Opinions?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t1270)
Button (t1020)
Hero (t670)
BB (t495)
UTG (t2225)
UTG+1 (t1590)
MP1 (t615)
MP2 (t980)
MP3 (t1135)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
4 folds, MP3 calls t30, CO raises to t125, 1 fold, Hero raises to t220, 1 fold, MP3 calls t190, CO calls t95.

Flop: (t690) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero bets all-in (450)
MP3 folds, CO calls t450.

Turn: (t1140) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)

River: (t1140) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)

Final Pot: t1140

Munkster

02-06-2005, 03:10 PM

I wouldn't push on the flop because:

1. it is very diffult to bluff out a player who has an Ace at this point (450 is not going to do it). and if either of your opponents has a flush draw/straight draw, they're getting the odds to call as well.

2. it's one of those situations when you get called you are often a huge underdog

3. there are 2 opponents

I would definitely raise more/push PF. Other than that, you are pretty committed on the flop, but check-calling is better than pushing I think (it at least induce someone to bluff with 2nd pair or smaller pp).

AtticusFinch

02-06-2005, 03:36 PM

Well let's think about it. Pocket aces are unlikely, as I wasn't reraised. Let' say there's a 50% chance each of my opponents has an ace. (Very rough, but probably not that far off).

Then there's a 75% chance that at least one of them has an ace. Assuming the chances I outdraw a pair of aces roughly cancel out the chances my opps outdraw me when I have them beat (not accurate, but not WAY off given my backdoor nut flush draw), I have 3/1 against me to win this hand. With one caller, I'm getting about 2.5/1, and with two callers 3.5/1.

I'm not convinced I'll only be called when I'm beat. I wouldn't be surprised to see QQ-99 or a flush draw call here, thinking I'm just trying to take the pot down. (Case in point: the caller had TT and my hand held up. I went on to win the tourney).

Overall it looks like a losing play, but not by a huge margin. I should add that both my opps were pretty weak, so this was probably close to even money.

MagnoliasFM

02-06-2005, 06:59 PM

I'm interested in the psychology behind the KK push when an A flops. I've seen this move countless times in my life, and I still don't know why people do it. It's like before the flop they felt invincible, and then when that 1 card they didn't want to see comes out on the flop, they somehow feel the need to just go all-in. If they have an A, they call and you're busted. If they don't, they won't call. I don't get this play at all.

AtticusFinch

02-06-2005, 11:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm interested in the psychology behind the KK push when an A flops.

[/ QUOTE ]

So am I. I'm thinking about it now, but at the time I did nothing of the kind. It was like, "Oh what the hell, I'll just push and pray."

[ QUOTE ]

It's like before the flop they If they have an A, they call and you're busted. If they don't, they won't call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'm not entirely convinced of this. If you read my prior post, the fellow called me with TT. As I said, it's probably negative EV overall, but considering how small my stack was, it was either push or check/fold to the button's automatic bet. I went for it, preferring to go down shooting, and knowing that they won't always have an ace.

Still, this is one of those cases where it's probably unfortunate that it worked, as I'm teaching myself bad habits. So I posted here to collect some abuse /images/graemlins/smile.gif