Common, Simple, But Tough Decision

[gaming_mouse]

This kind of thing seems to come up alot.

This villain was very LAGgy preflop (20% PFR), and very passive postflop. He is not likely to fold to a flop bet, but probably won't raise either.

What is my plan for the rest of the hand?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero....

[The Dude]

I usually check-raise if I think my A high is good.

This might help. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1678411&amp;page=1&amp;view=colla psed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1) /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
I usually check-raise if I think my A high is good.

This might help. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1678411&amp;page=1&amp;view=colla psed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1) /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

c/r is not a bad idea.

a key difference, though, is that this guy was not as likely to fold as a good player is.

[gaming_mouse]

bump: this is an important one for me. i feel pretty lost in these situations for some reason.

thanks for more comments.

[The Dude]

Then you can take the bet, bet, check-call line if you don't improve and the board doesn't get scary.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Then you can take the bet, bet, check-call line if you don't improve and the board doesn't get scary.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. If he raises the flop, how do I proceed? Call and fold an UI turn?
2. If he calls the flop and raises the river, I just fold UI, right?
3. If he calls, calls, you are saying I should c/call the river UI? How come? Is my hand really good enough to make this profitable?

Thanks,
gm

[Derek in NYC]

Bets the flop, check/folds the turn. This is a small pot, and I'm out of position, and it wasn't a steal raise, so I'm not going to want to mix it up too much.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Bets the flop, check/folds the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know, as a typical line, I don't like it too much. Once people catch on, they can run over you too easily. You'd have to be c/raising alot of turns too for this to be right. But then again, I don't really see any better lines....

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
this guy was not as likely to fold as a good player is.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, here's the thing. If you are, in fact, ahead then you want him to call your flop check-raise. It's not the most comfortable thing in the world, but often these opponents will call the check-raise on the flop planning on folding the turn unimproved. That's a good line for you. If he calls the turn bet I usually check-call the river because everyone's tendency is to bluff the river when checked to. If he's really passive you can check-fold the river.

[Derek in NYC]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know, as a typical line, I don't like it too much. Once people catch on, they can run over you too easily.

[/ QUOTE ]

Smart thinking players always worry that the other guy is running a move on them, so we tend to get fancy ourselves. So if you're going to make a play at this pot out of position, I think you need to do something weird like reraise preflop (against a LAG raiser), or wait until a 4th street scare card to make your move (fairly effective against people who can fold). I really dont think you can do anything on the flop against a tricky opponent. Tricky opponents know all the tricks, and are just as liable to reraise your checkraise. So I just give up on these small pots pretty quickly, unless I feel like it is necessary to make a stand against somebody who is playing table captain.

Against a straightforward opponent, the flop bet works pretty often.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are, in fact, ahead then you want him to call your flop check-raise. It's not the most comfortable thing in the world, but often these opponents will call the check-raise on the flop planning on folding the turn unimproved. That's a good line for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this, Dude. Although I am not crazy about c/calling the river. I almost feel.... if you calls the turn after my flop c/r, my A high is not good. Is c/folding the river an option after a flop c/r and a turn bet?

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you need to do something weird like reraise preflop (against a LAG raiser)

[/ QUOTE ]

I should have done this. The whole hand becomes much easier to play.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
Is c/folding the river an option after a flop c/r and a turn bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure. And you'll probably lose most of the times you check-call the river. But then again, you don't need to win very often to be profitable. Here's what I find. HU bad players tend to find any excuse at all to see the next card. For example, they'll call a flop bet w/ two undercards and a gut-shot (or, if they're smart enough to realize how bad that is, they'll raise it, because, you know, you could fold). If they pick up some kind of gutshot on the turn or have even one overcard (A7 is a common hand for them to call a turn blank with), they'll call. So you're not necessarily behind, although you'd certainly like them to fold.

Now once you've been the aggressor the whole way HU and check the river, they'll bet about 90% of the time. Obviously a good amount of those are bluffs, so you can usually call with a strong A.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Now once you've been the aggressor the whole way HU and check the river, they'll bet about 90% of the time. Obviously a good amount of those are bluffs, so you can usually call with a strong A.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, the pot is offering slightly better than 7:1 after the flop c/r, turn bet, and his river bet. So we have to be good 12.5% That seems like a pretty close call to me, given that even as a loose raiser most of his hands will be a PP or a better A than ours. What do you think?

[ QUOTE ]
they'll bet about 90% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this a good reason to c/r the river sometimes? if so, how often?

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
Bets the flop, check/folds the turn. This is a small pot, and I'm out of position, and it wasn't a steal raise, so I'm not going to want to mix it up too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold preflop if this is the case. Why would we want to call if we think we are a 3:1 dog?

Brad

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop if this is the case. Why would we want to call if we think we are a 3:1 dog?

[/ QUOTE ]

Brad,

I'm not sure I follow your point. Our PF equity drops once we miss the flop, so you can't necessarily argue that his line implies a PF fold, can you?

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop if this is the case. Why would we want to call if we think we are a 3:1 dog?

[/ QUOTE ]

Brad,

I'm not sure I follow your point. Our PF equity drops once we miss the flop, so you can't necessarily argue that his line implies a PF fold, can you?

[/ QUOTE ]

What I'm driving at is that we should not be calling preflop if we think that we are a significant dog. Let's say that the PFR will only raise 99+ and AT+. We should fold preflop. If he will raise a lot of hands (as might be the case in this example) then we certainly can't fold preflop. If he will raise stuff like A5 or K8 then we also can't be routinely folding when we miss the flop.

Brad

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
What I'm driving at is that we should not be calling preflop if we think that we are a significant dog. Let's say that the PFR will only raise 99+ and AT+. We should fold preflop. If he will raise a lot of hands (as might be the case in this example) then we certainly can't fold preflop. If he will raise stuff like A5 or K8 then we also can't be routinely folding when we miss the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you've explained the dilemma I felt perfectly.

So what is your line in this case? Raise PF?

If so, how do you play on the flop and afterward in my case (after only coldcalling PF)?

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What I'm driving at is that we should not be calling preflop if we think that we are a significant dog. Let's say that the PFR will only raise 99+ and AT+. We should fold preflop. If he will raise a lot of hands (as might be the case in this example) then we certainly can't fold preflop. If he will raise stuff like A5 or K8 then we also can't be routinely folding when we miss the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you've explained the dilemma I felt perfectly.

So what is your line in this case? Raise PF?

If so, how do you play on the flop and afterward in my case (after only coldcalling PF)?

[/ QUOTE ]

ATo ain't so hot so I normally like to create the illusion that my hand is better then it is by 3-betting preflop and then taking the lead on the flop. This way when I flop nothing and I get raised, I know that I'm up against something good and I can fold the turn UI.

If the PFR is the type of player where my ATo will be garbage then I will fold preflop. Against someone who actually does raise 20% of his holdings preflop, I'm making it 3-bets with ATo. I would just call with AA in this spot however (again to decieve him).

Brad