40-80 hand at commerce- $20 to anyone who can guess button's hand

[jfresh]

Been at the table for like 2 rounds... got a hot run of cards (KK (first hand), AA, AK, AK, AQ) showed down a few of them. most got cracked. This means I have been raising a ton of pots, and showing down a lot of solid hands. i assume the table has been observant enough to pick up on this.

Table has been pretty loose, not over-laggy, but 4 people to the flop for 2 bets maybe on average. seen cold calls preflop with JQo and JTo. post-flop nothing way out of line...

I look down and see red KK UTG+1.

UTG raises. I smooth-call (eh? no? my thought in a sec), cutoff calls, button thinks and calls, BB (took a (bad?) beat a few hands back) says "I'm gonna get my money back this hand" and 3bets, UTG calls, I 4bet (eh?) everyone calls. 5 to the flop for 20.5 SB

flop 9s 4c 2h. checked to me, I bet, cutoff mucks quickly, button thinks and calls, BB and UTG call. 12.25 BB pot

turn Tc, matching 4c on the board. checked to me, button raises, BB calls 2 cold, I call. 18.25 BB pot

River 7x, checked to button, BB mucks 35o faceup, I call. 20.25 BB pot.

some notes on button: sat down recently, but hand right before check raised MP (who had AA) with top 2 pair (98s) on the flop. MP smoothcalled and raised the turn and UTG promptly 3bet him.


so what do you think? too fancy preflop? Is that play just out of the question? I'm 99% sure if I 3bet the UTG raiser from UTG+1, everyone would fold, and I would win the pot on the flop or turn. Another option would be smoothcalling the 3bet preflop and raising the flop.

Just seeing if this was a horrible play or not, its hard not to be results oriented, but i'll post the crazy results in a bit.

[random]

aa

[Justin A]

AA

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
aa

[/ QUOTE ]

Crap, you just got in there before me.

[Brom]

9/images/graemlins/club.gif9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[eugeneel123]

[Michael Davis]

6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
Cold calling a raise with KK is the worst play in history of limit holdem. Does not matter what curcumstances are. Move down to 2-4

-Eugene

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you feel it necessary to make a worthless post like this? If you don't like the cold call, just say so. It's not even the worst play you can make in that spot, let alone the history of limit hold'em.

And wtf do you mean the circumstances don't matter? They most certainly do.

[JasonP530]

I hate the cold call. It looks like you play a lot of pots, have lost a bunch, and could possibly be steaming(its still early, but you never know what others think). I would try to emphasize your image of being reckless and raising a lot since I assume when the cards dry up, youre not going to be playing many pots. Also, I really dont like the reraise from the back. You may have announced your hand, and have lost the leverage of being able to raise the flop to clear the field in this large pot. I dont know what the button's hand is, but it seems like he had a hand he may have wanted to reraise, perhaps Jacks or queens.

[eugeneel123]

[Michael Davis]

BS. I want to play against 1000 opponents when I have KK.

-Michael

[lapoker17]

I think this might be another good time to tell your story about playing 400-800 in Aruba. Seriously.

[NLSoldier]

3c5c

[gaming_mouse]

J8s

[djack]

[ QUOTE ]
Cold calling a raise with KK is the worst play in history of limit holdem. Does not matter what curcumstances are. Move down to 2-4

-Eugene

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting query. Depends on the opponent. Otherwise, return to .5/1 short.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
Cold calling a raise with KK is the worst play in history of limit holdem. Does not matter what curcumstances are. Move down to 2-4

[/ QUOTE ]
Either you are a retard, or you just like to imitate them.

[fyodor]

[ QUOTE ]
but 4 people to the flop for 2 bets maybe on average. seen cold calls preflop with JQo and JTo.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you pretty much know there will be cold callers behind you and yet you invite them in? The guy that said this is the worst play in history may have been exagerating but he has a point.

Limit the field. Win the pot.

[kemystery]

T9s

[Michael Davis]

I just reread Poker, Gaming, and Life and I remember Sklansky saying that most people mistaken think poker is about winning pots and not winning money. I'm hard-pressed to figure how letting QJo enter the pot can hurt your expectation here.

-Michael

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but 4 people to the flop for 2 bets maybe on average. seen cold calls preflop with JQo and JTo.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you pretty much know there will be cold callers behind you and yet you invite them in? The guy that said this is the worst play in history may have been exagerating but he has a point.

Limit the field. Win the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

So are are you saying that if you somehow knew the guy behind you had QJo and you had KK, and he told you he would call if you wanted him to call, and fold if you told him to fold, you would tell him to fold?

[fyodor]

I try to win money by being selective about what pots I try to win. Once in a pot I do what I can to win the pot while at the same time extracting the most money I can out of it.

In this pot, with this hand, I believe the correct balance is to 3 bet preflop and get it HU. KK is a favourite HU. Allowing 2 or 3 more hands to get in just means the flop is more likely to hit someone. It's not likely to hit the KK.

If you think otherwise, maybe you haven't read enough Sklansky.

[fyodor]

No. I'm saying the OP knows this is a table full of coldcallers. If they will coldcall with QJo they will coldcall with Axs.

Is it now normal practice to give all the draws against you cheap peeks?

[NLSoldier]

I am not saying I advocate cold calling. I would 3 bet everytime. But I am definately NOT 3 betting in hopes of getting it HU. I'm 3 betting because I have a huge edge no matter who decides to cold call (except in the unlikely event aces are out). And I gladly welcome anyone who wants to cold call whether they have QJo or AXs or anything else. When they cold call you make money, its as simple as that.

[ QUOTE ]
In this pot, with this hand, I believe the correct balance is to 3 bet preflop and get it HU. KK is a favourite HU. Allowing 2 or 3 more hands to get in just means the flop is more likely to hit someone. It's not likely to hit the KK.


[/ QUOTE ]

KK doesn't have to be a favorite agaisnt the entire field. It just has to win more than its share relative to how many opponents are in, which it obviously does.

[Schneids]

I think 3-betting the turn is +EV on this given table.

[ML4L]

7 /images/graemlins/club.gif2 /images/graemlins/club.gif

ML4L

[Kaz The Original]

Obviously 72

[fyodor]

I agree. After I make it 3 bets preflop I don't care who calls behind me (unless they have AA) I just don't want them all coming in for 2 bets when I could be charging 3.

[34TheTruth34]

T7

[imported_stealthcow]

A /images/graemlins/club.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif

[jfresh]

[ QUOTE ]
T7

[/ QUOTE ]

got it. what suit though.... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

T /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

another $20 for someone who can logically justify it.... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

whoops! flop was rainbow and no hearts... so the deuce was a diamond i guess.

[ QUOTE ]
I agree. After I make it 3 bets preflop I don't care who calls behind me (unless they have AA) I just don't want them all coming in for 2 bets when I could be charging 3.

[/ QUOTE ]

but i charged them 4....

[Kaz The Original]

He had an over and runner runner straight draw... that's almost 4 outs. You just don't have the creativity neccessarily to play that sort of hand.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
I think 3-betting the turn is +EV on this given table.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that not 3-betting the turn here is terrible, especially at the Commerce 40 where all you have done is bet. How are they supposed to know you have KK? Remember, you hid it preflop. The way you get that back is by 3-betting the turn here.

[jfresh]

[ QUOTE ]
He had an over and runner runner straight draw... that's almost 4 outs. You just don't have the creativity neccessarily to play that sort of hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

he was 4.75% to win after the flop. thats not 4 outs

[Kaz The Original]

Knowing your holding.

(I was not seriously defending his play btw)

[jogger08152]

7-2. Probably unsuited. Gimme money.

[jfresh]

[ QUOTE ]
T7

[/ QUOTE ]

pm me and i 'll get you yo' money

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
but i charged them 4....

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you have good reason to believe the betting would get raised somewhere behind you? Obviously if you know someone is for sure going to 3bet, then calling is the better play.

[Lawrence Ng]

2-7 offsuit

[mike l.]

the button has AA.

as for the rest of it it's okay i guess. kind of dumb to not reraise before the flop because ive seen people cold call 3 bets with all sorts of horrible crap in that game.

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that not 3-betting the turn here is terrible, especially at the Commerce 40 where all you have done is bet. How are they supposed to know you have KK? Remember, you hid it preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero did show some strength when he coldcalled and then 4 bet didn't he? /images/graemlins/confused.gif