extracting value from a monster

[Keres]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero ???

-------------------
SB has VPIP of 25. Agg of 1.5 in around 50 hands
Button is LAG 33 and 4.66 - 75 hands
Today's Hero is TP. 16 and 1.5

The flop call sucked. Folding or raising would've been better.

a.) Action on flop. Bet out, call or c/r?
b.) Action on turn?

[emonrad87]

Bet out on the flop. That changes the entire hand dynamic.

[Mike Gallo]

I would bet the flop and call a raise.

Then I would check raise the turn.

Then I would go as many bets as I could on the river.

[Chairman Wood]

IMO, with monsters, bet bet bet. when you start throwing in fancy plays like c/r you often kill your action and worse sometimes you wiff. Bet, you want to be raised. The more monsterous a hand is the better it is to bet.

[The-Matador]

For what it's worth I think the advice this board gives on monsters such as quads is 100% incorrect.

Betting out on the flop is simply ridiculous here. It's poor play and gives your opponents no respect. People at low limits are simply NOT dumb enough to start raising you when you bet out here, and you don't give them a chance to make something big. I could not possibly disagree more with the advice to bet hard on the mortal nuts type hands.

[emonrad87]

[ QUOTE ]
For what it's worth I think the advice this board gives on monsters such as quads is 100% incorrect.

Betting out on the flop is simply ridiculous here. It's poor play and gives your opponents no respect. People at low limits are simply NOT dumb enough to start raising you when you bet out here, and you don't give them a chance to make something big. I could not possibly disagree more with the advice to bet hard on the mortal nuts type hands.

[/ QUOTE ]


And you sir, err ma'am, SUCK. You are wrong and you have clearly not read SSH if you think this way.

[The-Matador]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For what it's worth I think the advice this board gives on monsters such as quads is 100% incorrect.

Betting out on the flop is simply ridiculous here. It's poor play and gives your opponents no respect. People at low limits are simply NOT dumb enough to start raising you when you bet out here, and you don't give them a chance to make something big. I could not possibly disagree more with the advice to bet hard on the mortal nuts type hands.

[/ QUOTE ]


And you sir, err ma'am, SUCK. You are wrong and you have clearly not read SSH if you think this way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have read SSH many times, I do not suck at poker, and this advice is still wrong.

[emonrad87]

Then prove why it's wrong.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
For what it's worth I think the advice this board gives on monsters such as quads is 100% incorrect.

Betting out on the flop is simply ridiculous here. It's poor play and gives your opponents no respect. People at low limits are simply NOT dumb enough to start raising you when you bet out here, and you don't give them a chance to make something big. I could not possibly disagree more with the advice to bet hard on the mortal nuts type hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with checking hands like flopped quads or robust looking trips (e.g. JJ5r) is that it can get quite confusing on the turn, when you need to quickly integrate the turn card into the milieu of the hand in order to try to decide whether to go for the checkraise and risk missing bets, or to simply bet out, which could also kill the action following one's flop check.

On the other hand, at least when one bets on the flop, it doesn't look very suspicious when one bets again on the turn.

[The-Matador]

[ QUOTE ]
Then prove why it's wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I gave my reasons above and in the quad 3s thread. You must give your opponents the chance to make an excellent second best hand. When you immediately bet out, you don't let them bluff, you don't let them catch, and you give them a chance to fold. I think it's silly.

And now a question for you: why do you seem to find it so difficult to disagree with people on here without being so disagreeable?

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with 5, 5.
5 folds, Hero calls,

[/ QUOTE ]

I stopped reading here.

[Chairman Wood]

FWIW, there really is way too much advice given on how to play monsters. Happens so little of the time and many of us (myself included) have a lot of other parts of our games that need focusing on. When playing monsters, your opponents holdings are really the most important part to making money and we really can't do anything about that.

The thing about your post is that you can be happy and walk around with a [censored]-eating grin on thinking you "tricked" your opponent by making all these fancy moves and I will play the same hand and just walk around with a few more BB's.

[The-Matador]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, there really is way too much advice given on how to play monsters. Happens so little of the time and many of us (myself included) have a lot of other parts of our games that need focusing on. When playing monsters, your opponents holdings are really the most important part to making money and we really can't do anything about that.

The thing about your post is that you can be happy and walk around with a [censored]-eating grin on thinking you "tricked" your opponent by making all these fancy moves and I will play the same hand and just walk around with a few more BB's.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you will walk away with any more BBs. I think you will win less. I am not advocating my theory on monsters because I think it is more clever--I am advocating it because it wins the most money.

[Chairman Wood]

Very good point, how could I have missed that?

Raise preflop, if you don't want to fold.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]

For what it's worth I think the advice this board gives on monsters such as quads is 100% incorrect.

Betting out on the flop is simply ridiculous here. It's poor play and gives your opponents no respect. People at low limits are simply NOT dumb enough to start raising you when you bet out here, and you don't give them a chance to make something big. I could not possibly disagree more with the advice to bet hard on the mortal nuts type hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this advice is more likely to be correct on a board like TT7r with TT or something similar where you have the board really cripled in an unraised pot. On this board, with rags and a flush draw present and a PFR I think you want to get involved on the flop. Probably not with a bet but a checkraise seems excellent.

You aren't going to win a big pot on a flop like this unless your opponent happens to have at least an overpair (or simply a 9 after the board pairs) or a flush draw that hits. Giving a free card just isn't going to change that often enough compared to how many bets you are leaving there by not getting in a bet on the flop.

[Bob T.]

You want to play this hand, just like you play most of your hands. If you frequently bet into preflop bettors, then bet into this one. If you frequently checkraise preflop bettors, if you hold say top pair, then checkraise this one. Try and make the hand look like most of the other hands that you have played recently.

This is an example from a NL tournament, but the same principle applies.

Blinds 50-100 everyone has stacks around 5000.

Hand 1, utg +1 I have pocket 9s, I open raise for 300, UTG +2 calls and the rest fold. Flop AQJ rainbow, I bet 300, UTG +2 calls. Turn, something, I check UTG+2 bets 1000, I fold.

Hand 2, I open raise for 300 with pocket aces. UTG +2 calls, and we see the flop of AT9 rainbow. I bet 300, and UTG+2, calls. Turn, some small card, I check, UTG+2 bets 1500, I move all in. He thought for a long time, and called me with AK.

The key is, play monsters just like you have been playing one pair hands, and then, when you threebet the turn, or thereabouts, your opponents will start thinking about the possibility of a monster hand, but it will be too late by then.

You notice how when a maniac gets a monster hand, not only do they win, but they frequently win a monster pot with that hand. If you are making enough bets in a game, then you can just use your usual betting pattern, and it isn't until you put in extra action on the big streets, that your opponents catch on to what you might have, and by then the pot is big enough that they probably have to make crying calls anyway.

[The-Matador]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with 5, 5.
5 folds, Hero calls,

[/ QUOTE ]

I stopped reading here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, because even though he is asking about extracting value from monsters, because you disagree with his PF play you should dismiss the hand immediately. How pleasant of you.

Wtf is with this board and the ridiculous dogmatic bullshit?

[The-Matador]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

For what it's worth I think the advice this board gives on monsters such as quads is 100% incorrect.

Betting out on the flop is simply ridiculous here. It's poor play and gives your opponents no respect. People at low limits are simply NOT dumb enough to start raising you when you bet out here, and you don't give them a chance to make something big. I could not possibly disagree more with the advice to bet hard on the mortal nuts type hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this advice is more likely to be correct on a board like TT7r with TT or something similar where you have the board really cripled. On this board, with rags and a flush draw present I think you want to get involved on the flop. Probably not with a bet but a checkraise seems excellent.

[/ QUOTE ]

Checkraise the flop? That is the worst possible thing you can do, imho. It scares the crap out of anyone else in the hand and kills your action, along with giving them a clear chance to fold and basically announcing your hand as at least trips.

[Keres]

I think chesspain nailed it.

[ QUOTE ]

The problem with checking hands like flopped quads or robust looking trips (e.g. JJ5r) is that it can get quite confusing on the turn, when you need to quickly integrate the turn card into the milieu of the hand in order to try to decide whether to go for the checkraise and risk missing bets, or to simply bet out, which could also kill the action following one's flop check.

On the other hand, at least when one bets on the flop, it doesn't look very suspicious when one bets again on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I got greedy and bet on the turn hoping that A-9 or K-9 might turn up. Thought I might get a cap on the turn and river. Fold-Fold was the result.

In hindsight, with the way I played the flop, checking the turn and then c/r'ing may be the right move here. A player with a 9 will bet if checked to and checking gives the LAG a chance to make a run at the pot. Though with a board that crippled and two other players who called his flop bet even a 9-less LAG may have checked through.

And emonrad87's post about betting on the flop and changing the dynamic of the hand was right on too.

So yeah, I'd say I misplayed every street.

Thanks for the thoughts giving better ways to approach the situation in the future. Fundamental knowledge, but its knowledge I'm missing.

[ErrantNight]

there's a bunch of information on why not to slow play monsters in SSH.

check it out.

[emonrad87]

[ QUOTE ]
And now a question for you: why do you seem to find it so difficult to disagree with people on here without being so disagreeable?

[/ QUOTE ]


Wait.. I've never talked to this sn before and I don't post very often in Small Stakes, so how do you know I'm "always" so disagreeable?

Oh yea, it's cuz you've been posting here with a jillion other sn's. I haven't liked you since you were lansing. Just go away. Your advice is horrible and you don't listen to others' advice, so you really have NO point in being here.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]

Wtf is with this board and the ridiculous dogmatic bullshit?

[/ QUOTE ]

Becasue the mistake preflop is far worse than anything else he does in the hand.

Go back to trying to hustle 2-bit hick cops and multi-millionaires Mr Matador

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Checkraise the flop? That is the worst possible thing you can do, imho. It scares the crap out of anyone else in the hand and kills your action, along with giving them a clear chance to fold and basically announcing your hand as at least trips.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you actually believe the BS you are spouting you are an idiot.

Checkraising the flop (after a bet and a call) is going to lead to many more calldowns than making a move on the turn.

[Keres]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Wtf is with this board and the ridiculous dogmatic bullshit?

[/ QUOTE ]

Becasue the mistake preflop is far worse than anything else he does in the hand.



[/ QUOTE ]

you're quite right about the preflop call being atrocious. I thought I pointed it out in my OP but wrote "the flop call sucked" not the "preflop call" sucked as I intended. not that you read that far anyways.

[The-Matador]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And now a question for you: why do you seem to find it so difficult to disagree with people on here without being so disagreeable?

[/ QUOTE ]


Wait.. I've never talked to this sn before and I don't post very often in Small Stakes, so how do you know I'm "always" so disagreeable?

Oh yea, it's cuz you've been posting here with a jillion other sn's. I haven't liked you since you were lansing. Just go away. Your advice is horrible and you don't listen to others' advice, so you really have NO point in being here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't use the word "always" and I have no idea who you are. But you seem very angry and I don't know why you appear to find it so difficult not to be a total [censored].

[The-Matador]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Checkraise the flop? That is the worst possible thing you can do, imho. It scares the crap out of anyone else in the hand and kills your action, along with giving them a clear chance to fold and basically announcing your hand as at least trips.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you actually believe the BS you are spouting you are an idiot.

Checkraising the flop (after a bet and a call) is going to lead to many more calldowns than making a move on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally wrong. I'm not going to call you an idiot, as I seem to be an anomaly here in believing that strategic discussions should be civil, but I believe you don't fully understand how small stakes players play if you believe a checkraise on the flop will get more action than a turn raise. A turn raise makes people at small stakes very eager to call you down, as they can see the end (the river) in sight.

At higher stakes the turn raise is more feared, but not at small stakes.

[emonrad87]

It's because I don't like any of your manifestations.

[The-Matador]

[ QUOTE ]
It's because I don't like any of your manifestations.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we established on the general board that whoever was wearing the tinfoil hat there was out to lunch. If it amuses you to think I am whoever the posting girl was before me, by all means go ahead, but since I'm not it would be great if you weren't such a complete dick to me.

[Chairman Wood]

[ QUOTE ]
I am not advocating my theory on monsters because I think it is more clever--I am advocating it because it wins the most money.

[/ QUOTE ]
Which is in my opinion very wrong for numerous reasons. Chesspain did a good job explaining why check raises and what not are a bad idea here. In general concerning slowplaying and giving your opponents a chance to make a hand there are very few times one should really do this. If this were heads up, it might be different but here 3-way you might be missing out on a whole round of betting here which is extremely difficult to make up on future rounds. You simply are just missing bets resulting in you winning less money. There are so many hands especially in Low Limits that will pay you off.

[Chairman Wood]

BTW, love the avatar. Congrats!

[The-Matador]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am not advocating my theory on monsters because I think it is more clever--I am advocating it because it wins the most money.

[/ QUOTE ]
Which is in my opinion very wrong for numerous reasons. Chesspain did a good job explaining why check raises and what not are a bad idea here. In general concerning slowplaying and giving your opponents a chance to make a hand there are very few times one should really do this. If this were heads up, it might be different but here 3-way you might be missing out on a whole round of betting here which is extremely difficult to make up on future rounds. You simply are just missing bets resulting in you winning less money. There are so many hands especially in Low Limits that will pay you off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay. I think the reasoning is wrong, but we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
but I believe you don't fully understand how small stakes players play if you believe a checkraise on the flop will get more action than a turn raise. A turn raise makes people at small stakes very eager to call you down, as they can see the end (the river) in sight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your position sucks for raising the turn here. The turn will get checked behind too often when the raiser has unimproved overcards. Not check-raising the flop is just missing two small bets.

[Chairman Wood]

Matador,
You tend to do this a lot which is one reason I think why people are getting aggrevated with you. Your discussions would be a lot more respected if instead of saying [ QUOTE ]
Okay. I think the reasoning is wrong, but we'll just have to agree to disagree

[/ QUOTE ] you said " I think this reasoning is wrong because......" Anyway, I really don't know how the fact that you miss out on a round of betting, thus an oppurtunity to make more money, is bad reasoning.

[The-Matador]

[ QUOTE ]
Matador,
You tend to do this a lot which is one reason I think why people are getting aggrevated with you. Your discussions would be a lot more respected if instead of saying [ QUOTE ]
Okay. I think the reasoning is wrong, but we'll just have to agree to disagree

[/ QUOTE ] you said " I think this reasoning is wrong because......" Anyway, I really don't know how the fact that you miss out on a round of betting, thus an oppurtunity to make more money, is bad reasoning.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have stated it 3 times now.

Reread my posts.

The reasoning is wrong because it costs you bets. It costs you bets because you underestimate your opponents' ability to fold and you don't understand how much a checkraise scares them on the flop, even at low limits. It costs you bets because it gives your opponents a chance to fold, and often they will. It costs you bets because even when your opponets call and form a good hand, they won't be raising with it, as they will fear yours. It costs you bets because it doesn't give your opponents a chance to run a bluff. It costs you bets because you aren't making your opponents pay on the expensive streets, but you are giving them a chance to get away from their hands on those streets. It costs you bets because counter to the experience at higher limits people find it a lot easier to fold on the flop or to a turn bet at low limits--when they get raised on the turn they will often call down because they are so *close* to the river.

I could actually go on, but I think I have said enough on this. You can accept my reasons or not.

And btw, I don't think the reason people on this thread are upset with me has anything to do with my posts. It has to do with them incorrectly thinking I am some other poster (which is absurd) and the general jerkish tendencies of poker players, particularly ones who believe they are intellectually superior players.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
The reasoning is wrong because it costs you bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

no.

[ QUOTE ]
It costs you bets because you underestimate your opponents' ability to fold and you don't understand how much a checkraise scares them on the flop, even at low limits.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's 3/6 on Party. Checkraises don't scare anyone.

[ QUOTE ]
It costs you bets because it gives your opponents a chance to fold, and often they will.

[/ QUOTE ]

Often? Try rarely. raising AA preflop also gives your opponents a chance to fold.

[ QUOTE ]
It costs you bets because even when your opponets call and form a good hand, they won't be raising with it, as they will fear yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

what about the majority of the time when they don't form a good hand? Now you're missing bets on the flop. If they already have a good hand, you give them a chance to 3bet.

[ QUOTE ]
people find it a lot easier to fold on the flop or to a turn bet at low limits--when they get raised on the turn they will often call down because they are so *close* to the river

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you realize that you're contradicting yourself in a single sentence? And you're wrong. Low limit players are much more likely to call down with very marginal hands.

[ QUOTE ]
I could actually go on, but I think I have said enough on this. You can accept my reasons or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I choose not. Your assumptions about players who populate 3/6 are way off.

[The-Matador]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The reasoning is wrong because it costs you bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

no.

&gt;&gt; Meh. Easy to say. Let's see if you prove it.

[ QUOTE ]
It costs you bets because you underestimate your opponents' ability to fold and you don't understand how much a checkraise scares them on the flop, even at low limits.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's 3/6 on Party. Checkraises don't scare anyone.

&gt;&gt; You underestimate your opponents, like all arrogant players. This will cost you money, even though you will be too blind to see it.

[ QUOTE ]
It costs you bets because it gives your opponents a chance to fold, and often they will.

[/ QUOTE ]

Often? Try rarely. raising AA preflop also gives your opponents a chance to fold.

&gt;&gt; Totally silly. Raising PF with AA helps protect your hand as well as pushes your equity edge. That's why you do it. When you flop quads, your equity is 100% (or close enough) and you have nothing to protect. Aggressively playing a monster on the flop will at *best* cause your oppoents to go into calldown mode. At worst they fold. How is this better than giving them a chance to catch and/or bluff?

[ QUOTE ]
It costs you bets because even when your opponets call and form a good hand, they won't be raising with it, as they will fear yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

what about the majority of the time when they don't form a good hand? Now you're missing bets on the flop. If they already have a good hand, you give them a chance to 3bet.

&gt;&gt; Rarely will they have a good hand when you flop a monster like this. It's a deck killer. But they might get frisky on the turn and they might catch. If you play it slowly, you are in the long run going to get a LOT more action than those very, very few times your opponent has something he's willing to get crazy with on the flop. This reasoning is just 100% wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
people find it a lot easier to fold on the flop or to a turn bet at low limits--when they get raised on the turn they will often call down because they are so *close* to the river

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you realize that you're contradicting yourself in a single sentence? And you're wrong. Low limit players are much more likely to call down with very marginal hands.

&gt;&gt; I'd like to have you explain how I am contradicting myself. So many junior logicians on here, and so few know what they're talking about. There is no contradiction in that sentence--you simply didn't understand it. The point is that if you spring the trap on the turn, you will often get called down for the big bets because people are closer to the river and their risk is minimal. Often a checkraise on the flop and a bet on the turn induces a fold, whereas a call on the flop and a raise on the turn induces a calldown.

[ QUOTE ]
I could actually go on, but I think I have said enough on this. You can accept my reasons or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I choose not. Your assumptions about players who populate 3/6 are way off.

[/ QUOTE ]

&gt;&gt; I've played hundreds of thousands of hands of 3-6 in my life. I know how they play in BM and online. You can state that my assumptions are off, but you have nothing to back this up with except internet bravado and sheer arrogance.

[krishanleong]

Ha! I'm with Matador on this one. SS players do not slowplay enough and this is a good situation to slowplay. Here is my line.

Check the flop. If the preflop better bets, cr. If he has a big hand like an overpair you charge him to draw. Most people won't fold for 1 on the flop. If he has an overpair, he will either smoothcall and raise the turn or 3-bet in which case you can cr the turn. The reason you can't call the flop bet and cr the turn is because villian will check though with overs.

If the flop checks around, you can take a stab on the turn. You have given dead opponents a chance to make a weak hand. If they fold, you've done all you can.

Betting the flop is the worst of all worlds. Many players will call the flop with overs and fold the turn. Some will fold outright if they respect you.

Krishan

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
I've played hundreds of thousands of hands of 3-6 in my life.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm... that's funny because you seem to contradict yourself (yet again) in a couple of your initial posts:

"53,574 as of last night." (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1660198&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;s b=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1)

"I have another 32k hands " (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1661687&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;s b=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1)


But I suppose a great and experienced player such as yourself tends to spread his hand histories throughout hundreds of smaller databases ... uh-huh....

With love,

Adam

[DeeJ]

I think you are The Matador's long lost brother /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
Ha! I'm with Matador on this one. SS players do not slowplay enough and this is a good situation to slowplay. Here is my line.

Check the flop. If the preflop better bets, cr.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what (s)he's saying not to do. (S)he's claiming that checkraising the flop will make your opponent fold, but checkraising the turn will make him call down. It's absolutely retarded and false, but (s)he's a way better player than the rest of us (just ask (her)him).

CR the flop here could be done with a flush draw, trying to push an opponent off overcards. Lots and lots of low limit players have seen this move, and many times they will 3bet you or smooth-call and raise the turn. These reasonable players are all of a sudden going to want to fold their overpair here because you must have trips???

[me454555]

Betting the flop is 100% correct. The best way to conceal a big hand is to just bet. LLers expect fancy play from you and don't suspect you have the goods untill its too late. Heres a hand from my 3/6 game last week in a very similar situation.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO folds, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (5 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, UTG calls, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB calls, UTG calls.

River: (14 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls.

Final Pot: 18 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
SB has Jd Kc (two pair, jacks and twos).
Hero has 2d 2c (four of a kind, twos).
Outcome: Hero wins 18 BB. </font>

Your opponents want to call you and hit their hands theres no need to give them a free card to do it b/c they will anyway

[The-Matador]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've played hundreds of thousands of hands of 3-6 in my life.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm... that's funny because you seem to contradict yourself (yet again) in a couple of your initial posts:

"53,574 as of last night." (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1660198&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;s b=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1)

"I have another 32k hands " (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1661687&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;s b=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1)


But I suppose a great and experienced player such as yourself tends to spread his hand histories throughout hundreds of smaller databases ... uh-huh....

With love,

Adam

[/ QUOTE ]

Those are online hands in PT, dope.

I have been playing poker for 5 years online, and about 12 years in total. Only been using PT for about 5 months.

You really are a pathetic board stalker now aren't you?

[The-Matador]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ha! I'm with Matador on this one. SS players do not slowplay enough and this is a good situation to slowplay. Here is my line.

Check the flop. If the preflop better bets, cr.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what (s)he's saying not to do. (S)he's claiming that checkraising the flop will make your opponent fold, but checkraising the turn will make him call down. It's absolutely retarded and false, but (s)he's a way better player than the rest of us (just ask (her)him).

CR the flop here could be done with a flush draw, trying to push an opponent off overcards. Lots and lots of low limit players have seen this move, and many times they will 3bet you or smooth-call and raise the turn. These reasonable players are all of a sudden going to want to fold their overpair here because you must have trips???

[/ QUOTE ]

One more thing. All of this depends on the situation and the player you're up against. Generally slowplaying is correct, I think, but sometimes it is correct to bet out. Always springing to life on the flop is, I am certain 100% dead wrong though, as there will be too many times where your opponent will fold overcards and underpairs, or simply fold to your turn lead.

[krishanleong]

I was mostly referring to the people at the begining of the thread who said to lead the flop. Matador then said this was a great flop to slowplay. I don't agree with the way he slowplays, but I do agree leading the flop here is not optimal.

Krishan

[krishanleong]

This is a very different situation, (They almost always are) and you are being results oriented. I'm not saying your absolutely wrong, but posting a hand is not the way to prove your point.

Krishan

[me454555]

I guess the pfr in this example does change things about but the point still stands. A pfr is likely to raise or call almost any bet on that flop. W/some luck he hits his overcards or trips his pocket pair and bamn you get a nice big payoff.

The fact that this pot is small makes me even more inclined to bet. It looks good for future plays b/c I've shown that I bet the flop w/a real hand. Then when I raise pf and my overcards miss, I'll be more likly to pick up the pot.

[me454555]

Why do you feel this way about a flop bet? The board looks inocuous and many people still believe they are drawing live w/an overcard or 2. They want to call so give them a reason.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
A pfr is likely to raise or call almost any bet on that flop. W/some luck he hits his overcards or trips his pocket pair and bamn you get a nice big payoff.

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't matter what you do if he has an overpair or hits trips on the turn. You are going to get a nice big payoff no matter what you do on the flop. The point is to win as much as possible all the time.

Krishan

[krishanleong]

The basic gist of my line, is that you have a monster and are better off letting your opponents make second best hands by potentially giving a free card or cring the flop, which get's more money in the pot, traps a player inbetween you and the pfr and sets up a possible turn cr. Here is the line in full. Let me know under what circumstances leading the flop is better.

Check the flop. If the preflop better bets, cr. If he has a big hand like an overpair you charge him to draw. Most people won't fold for 1 on the flop even if they have overs though. If he has an overpair, he will either smoothcall and raise the turn or 3-bet in which case you can cr the turn. If he has overs, he will call, you can lead the turn and he will call or fold. Some people think calling the flop and cring the turn is a good play. The reason you can't call the flop bet and cr the turn is because villian will check though with overs.

If the flop checks around, you should bet the turn. You have given dead opponents a chance to make a weak hand. If they fold, you've done all you can.

Krishan

[The-Matador]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you feel this way about a flop bet? The board looks inocuous and many people still believe they are drawing live w/an overcard or 2. They want to call so give them a reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

You want them to RAISE, not just call. Let them have a chance to catch something and hope they think they're best. On the flop they have no chance to think they are best unless they have a boat, which happens so rarely it needn't even be considered seriously.

I have no idea why when you're a lock to win the hand so many people want a calldown from the other player. I want a damn raising war.

[Cheeseweasel]

Given your parameters.

"Typical" opponents (as opposed to fish, maniac, rock, solid)

Betting on the flop results in +11% EV v checking.

Checking on the turn results in +13% EV v betting.

I hope this generates more light than heat.

Best of luck.

[emonrad87]

I think this guy was following matador's advice and trying to get a check-raise...


Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop:
<font color="#666666">7 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks.

Turn: (2 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks.

River: (2 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks.

Final Pot: 2 BB

Results below:
BB has As 2d (one pair, jacks).
SB has Jd Jc (four of a kind, jacks).
Outcome: SB wins 2 BB.

[The-Matador]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this guy was following matador's advice and trying to get a check-raise...


Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop:
<font color="#666666">7 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks.

Turn: (2 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks.

River: (2 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks.

Final Pot: 2 BB

Results below:
BB has As 2d (one pair, jacks).
SB has Jd Jc (four of a kind, jacks).
Outcome: SB wins 2 BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, posting a single hand really does prove the point.

And how do you know the SB was going to call anything? Maybe giving him a chance to bluff was actually the only way to make any money at all here.

You don't know, and neither do I. But this hand proves nothing. Arguments are the currency around here, I thought, and the arguments against my position have been small change.

[krishanleong]

This is why you always bet your monster on the turn if the flop gets checked around. The point of slowplaying is not to humiliated by showing down quads in a 2 bb pot.

Krishan

[The-Matador]

[ QUOTE ]
This is why you always bet your monster on the turn if the flop gets checked around. The point of slowplaying is not to humiliated by showing down quads in a 2 bb pot.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. You don't just check it all the way. Betting the turn is pretty standard, as I've stated. Apparently Emonrad doesn't read well though--he thinks I advocate checking a monster all the way through for some reason.

[JerseyTom]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, there really is way too much advice given on how to play monsters. Happens so little of the time and many of us (myself included) have a lot of other parts of our games that need focusing on. When playing monsters, your opponents holdings are really the most important part to making money and we really can't do anything about that.

The thing about your post is that you can be happy and walk around with a [censored]-eating grin on thinking you "tricked" your opponent by making all these fancy moves and I will play the same hand and just walk around with a few more BB's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen.

SSH, page 44. Basically, these sorts of hands come up so infrequently that (short of check-folding, as described in the book example) how you play it doesn't make a significant difference in the long term.

Much more important is how you play the more marginal situations that come up again and again and again...


Tom

[me454555]

They're going to raise you anyway if they hit on the turn, not just call down.

Scenario 1: Overcards that don't connect on the turn

You c/r him on the flop, bet the turn and he tosses his overcards that didn't connect in a small pot.

Scenerio 2: Overpair

You c/r him on the flop and he gets too scared to raise the turn and ends up just calling down.

Scenerio 3: Overcards that hit the turn

This isn't so clear as there are many ways to play. I think it goes 50/50 here between each line

Line 1: Overcards connect on the turn and he calls down for fear of a set

Line 2: Overcards connect on the turn and he raises you then calls down your 3 bet and river

When you bet the flop

Scenerio 1: Overcards that don't hit on the turn

Line 1: He raises you on the flop and you can 3 bet him or go for the turn c/r, both acceptable options. He may toss it if he doesn't connect on the turn though.

Line 2: He calls the flop and call the turn and tosses the river unimproved. I'm giving him credit for a laydown he may or may not make just as I did in the first hand when I said he tosses it to a turn bet after the flop c/r. Both scenerios net 1 more bb so I think I can call each neutral.

Note the extra sb gained by line istead of c/ring the flop and betting the turn.

Scenerio 2: Overpair

Again you bet he raises you can 3 bet or c/r the turn or even run a stop n go. Again, gives you more options

Scenerio 3: Overcards that connect on the turn

You bet the flop he calls, you bet the turn he raises, you 3 bet.

By betting out instead of checkraising you are showing relative weakness and allowing your opponent to believe his hand is stronger than it is. Since the board does NOT contain high cards likely to scare your opponent, your bet looks likes small pp or 9 rather than flopped quads. I don't like the idea of c/ring and exposing the strenth of your hand and allowing your opponent to get away from this pot very easily.

The other reason for not slowplaying is that your opponents would have to make hand on the turn that they otherwise would have folded for 1 bet on the flop. Theres a flush draw on the flop and your opponents won't fold that, there's also low cards and I think we can aggree that your opponent will not fold overcards on the flop either. Those are 2 reasons to just bet out on the flop. Both of these hands will still give you plenty of action on the turn when the they connect as well.

This play looses value of course against a low pp that would have folded on the flop but turn a set and give you plenty of action. This is an outside possibility given the pfr. For a more complete discussion of slowplaying, its values and merits, please look in TOP.

[The-Matador]

TOP is wrong on this for low limit play.

[me454555]

The theory about slowplaying does. If you had read the rest of my post, you'd have seen why. It doesn't require your opponent to be a thinking player at all, just a calling station.