Dangerous to try to limp-reraise?

[boondockst]

Had to think someone would raise.....other than the river is this a POSSIBLE correct way to play? I do realize an astute player should be VERY AFRAID of a limp-reraise but he didn't seem to care. How else can you get maximum value out of AA/KK at Level 1 and 2?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

BB (t695)
UTG (t830)
<font color="#C00000">Hero (t680)</font>
MP1 (t1570)
MP2 (t835)
MP3 (t775)
CO (t325)
Button (t640)
<font color="#C00000">SB (t1650)</font>

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t15, MP1 calls t15, MP2 calls t15, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to t87.5</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises [t665] (all-in) </font>, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, SB calls t590.

SB has As Qc.

[lorinda]

How else can you get maximum value out of AA/KK at Level 1 and 2?

What limit?

At $10, you can just shovel the whole stack in and get an amazing strike rate.

Lori

[boondockst]

20+2

[MagnoliasFM]

[ QUOTE ]


How else can you get maximum value out of AA/KK at Level 1 and 2?



[/ QUOTE ]

Push preflop regardless of how much is in the pot. (If your opponent's don't care, you shouldn't play as if they do).

[lorinda]

I'd rather raise too much than get clever.

If they all fold then so be it, but a raise to something silly often gets them in the whole way.

I'd rather double up maybe 1 time in 3 than win 100 chips every time.

Lori

[AtticusFinch]

I think your play is perfectly fine here. I'd be wary of the limp reraise with Kings in general -- you're just asking for limpers with Ax to beat you -- but that doesn't mean you should never do it. You seem to imply that your table rarely saw a flop without a raise. When that's true, it can be a fine play UTG. Since you got the raise, pushing is definitely right with your stack size.

The SB made a lousy call, and you got unlucky. C'est la vie. I still like the play.

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]

What limit?

At $10, you can just shovel the whole stack in and get an amazing strike rate.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

Not just at $10s. I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone push in the $55s with 35 chips in the pot and get called. The pusher then turns over AA.

[boondockst]

So...FTOP and all.....the most +EV play is......push UTG (if i knew SB had AQo)

I feel my move looks more shady than an openpush but to the guy with AQ....IS THERE ANY CHANCE he will call the way it happened yet would not call if i'd openpushed UTG?

[lorinda]

In this hand, as AF says, it's fine, you read the table well.

I was really just referring to in general against an unknown lineup.

Lori

[boondockst]

It's not that important but i'm asking more of the psychological question:


I feel my move looks more shady than an openpush but to the guy with AQ....IS THERE ANY CHANCE he will call the way it happened yet would not call if i'd openpushed UTG?

In other words, am i helped by this play because of the psychological effect on a weak player of being reraised? He sure wasn't pot-committed but...I think about it and he must have wanted callers with his AQ...i'm definitely way overanalyzing the players at this level but was curious what you guys think anyway....

also, what hand does he put me on, if any? AJ AT? A steal attempt on Level 2?

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]
IS THERE ANY CHANCE he will call the way it happened yet would not call if i'd openpushed UTG?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, you should not be overly upset that he calls in either case. You're heavily favored to win and double up. The undesirable situation I spoke of involved the BB checking and an ace falling on the flop. Now you have no idea where you are.

I think the play you made is by far the most +EV when you have a good read of the table. In most cases, you'll get the blinds, along with a bonus from the raiser. In the rest of them, (such as the present case) chances are you'll double up. Don't let one bad result discourage you. This is poker.

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]

also, what hand does he put me on, if any? AJ AT? A steal attempt on Level 2?

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt he put you on any hand at all. He probably thought more along the lines of "Alright! Bring it on! I got somethin' for yo' ass!" I doubt he ever stopped to think about what you had. If he had, he would have realized he should fold.

[lorinda]

Had to dig this up, not proud of my own comments, but the guy had been getting up my nose anyway, and it would be rude to edit my own chat out.


***** Hand History for Game 1465587098 *****
100/200 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 8843806) - Thu Jan 20 19:26:57 EST 2005
Table Table 11562 (Real Money) -- Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: X8288848X (985)
Seat 3: OntheLneMDJD (475)
Seat 4: weightman111 (800)
Seat 5: Joakenfold (510)
Seat 6: DKT628 (1180)
Seat 7: lorinda (675)
Seat 9: Bossman (1560)
Seat 10: PPRocks (1815)
lorinda posts small blind (50)
Bossman posts big blind (100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to lorinda [ Js, 3h ]
PPRocks calls (100)
X8288848X folds.
OntheLneMDJD folds.
weightman111 folds.
Joakenfold folds.
DKT628 calls (100)
lorinda folds.
Bossman checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Qs, 4d, 8c ]
Bossman checks.
PPRocks checks.
DKT628 bets (100)
Bossman calls (100)
PPRocks folds.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Ad ]
Bossman bets (100)
DKT628 calls (100)
** Dealing River ** : [ 5h ]
Bossman checks.
DKT628 bets (880)
DKT628 is all-In.
Bossman: you dont want a call then
Bossman calls (880)
Creating Main Pot with $2510 with DKT628
** Summary **
Main Pot: 2510 |
Board: [ Qs 4d 8c Ad 5h ]
X8288848X balance 985, didn't bet (folded)
OntheLneMDJD balance 475, didn't bet (folded)
weightman111 balance 800, didn't bet (folded)
Joakenfold balance 510, didn't bet (folded)
DKT628 balance 2510, bet 1180, collected 2510, net +1330 [ 4c 4h ] [ three of a kind, fours -- Ad,Qs,4c,4h,4d ]
lorinda balance 625, lost 50 (folded)
Bossman balance 380, lost 1180 [ 2d Qc ] [ a pair of queens -- Ad,Qc,Qs,8c,5h ]
PPRocks balance 1715, lost 100 (folded)

&lt;Snip. Over the course of the next few hands, Bossman went out and proceeded to get rather upset. Of course, I did my best to side with the lovely table coach.&gt;


Bossman: the bet was so bad , i nearly passed
DKT628: i guess that made it a good bet


Bossman: not really , you want a caller , but your obviously a beginner , sat there with trips , bet small guarantees a caller

lorinda: so you called all your chips against trips and HES the idiot

DKT628: you thought i was stealin?

Bossman: think about it for a min , its a risky play to get no chips ,

DKT628: risky?

Bossman: bet smaller guarantees a call , ive never played you before so i had made my decision , but if he bets smaller i definitly call

DKT628: i had trips with a rainbow board


Lori

[boondockst]

no no


i'm excited he called....

i'm still asking if it's possible my play is the only one that would have gotten his chips in..

To rephrase again:

Is it possible he wouldn't have called if i'd have openpushed UTG even though he called my reraise all in?

I was surprised he called so i was wondering if there is a psychological impact on a weak player of being "reraised" (bullied)

[AtticusFinch]

Hilarious! You know I used to get on people criticizing the bad play of the fish ("Hey! Don't tap the aquarium!"), until I realized that the advice most of them give is usually so lousy that it only helps the rest of us.

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]

i'm still asking if it's possible my play is the only one that would have gotten his chips in..


[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh, now I understand. No, I think your play is more likely to be called by a weak player than an open-push, if anything. Many of them become pride-involved once they are in a pot, and refuse to be "bullied" out of it, when they would happily have folded to a push. A strong player, though, as you say, will probably muck his hand here unless he has a rock-crusher. A move that keeps weak players in and gets rid of strong players is almost never bad, even if it is an all-in, as the strong player will likely have a much better hand.

At the 10+1s, though, who knows?

[boondockst]

I ask one more "off-topic" style question...

Who's losing these SNGs? I realize PP has 50K people so is there like a core of :

1 or 2 players play these multi-tabling/for good profit
3 or 4 players are decent and break even
the rest just want to gamble?


The reason i ask...i've had some success my first 10 (3x1st, 2x2nd, 3 x 3rd) at least i think it's solid...

so i'm trying to figure is it a fluke or are some players always losing these?

[lorinda]

I've played well over 400 $33s in pokertracker now and have well over 3000 unique opponents.

Lori

[MagnoliasFM]

A lot of party poker players look down at AJ and tell themselves "I HAVE A GOOD HAND OMG."

Then they will proceed to call, whether it costs 15 or 800.

Some of them will raise if no-one has raised it, but there are a LOT who will NEVER raise. That's why you just have to open push for value. It's very unlikely that he will fold to your open push.