NBA MVP

[istewart]

Other than Nash, whom? Anyone even close besides James, maybe Duncan?

[tbach24]

Tony Allen. Without question, best player ever.

[Phoenix1010]

It's really not close anymore. The Suns have one of the top records in the league, and it's basically all due to what Nash has brought to the team. We all saw that when Nash was injured and the team collapsed. They have some great players, but Steve Nash is the key translating that talent into success.

The Spurs' success is mostly due to teamwork and being strong at all positions on both ends of the court. Duncan is the centerpiece of a really strong all-around franchise. However, I think they'll still be successful if his injury keeps him out for a few games. He will get some votes for being the best player on the best team in the league, but I don't think he'll win it. His supporting cast is just too good this year.

Lebron should get some consideration for the numbers he's putting up, but the Cavs have not won enough to get him the award. If they go on a big streak to end the season, it will be close, but I don't think that's gonna happen.

Same deal with Garnett. If the rest of the Wolves got their heads together and they won some games, this wouldn't even be a contest. Anyone who leads their team in all five major categories automatically gets top consideration. But it has to be a winning team.

No one seems to be including Iverson in this discussion, but I really think he deserves at least a mention. He's having a spectacular year with a pretty weak supporting cast.

Shaq will definitely get some votes as well, simply because he usually is the true most valuable player, but 23 and 10 aren't quite good enough for his position to get him the award for it. That, and Dwayne Wade's maturation is arguably just as responsible for the Heat's success as the Shaq-for-everyone trade.

So yeah, I really think Nash is going to get it. Then again, I was completely sure that Ron Artest was going to win MVP this year based on his early play and the Pacers' starting record. So I've been wrong before.

Regards,
Steve

[tbach24]

Yeah but does Nash do the offensive rebound dunk like Tony Allen? Definetly not.

[Phoenix1010]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah but does Nash do the offensive rebound dunk like Tony Allen? Definetly not.

[/ QUOTE ]'

Good point.

[Clarkmeister]

Put Nash on the Cavs instead of Lebron and they are a sub-.500 team.

It's James.

[tbach24]

You didn't say that they wouldn't have LeBron!!!!!!!! Tony Allen is much better than both.

[college_boy]

If the vote were held today it would be Nash in a landslide. Kg is not going to be a contender this year.

[andyfox]

Both James and Nash have obviously impacted their team and deserve MVP consideration. But I watched the Spurs play the other night and there's no more valuable player in the league than Duncan.

[Clarkmeister]

I'd have to vote Garnett over Duncan, though I respect the hell out of Duncan.

[college_boy]

That's true, but the Suns would not be the 1 or 2 seed with Lebron instead of Nash. The pieces just don't match.

[Popinjay]

[ QUOTE ]
That's true but the Suns would not be the 1 or 2 seed with Lebron instead of Nash. The pieces just don't match.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with that

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
That's true but the Suns would not be the 1 or 2 seed with Lebron instead of Nash. The pieces just don't match.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
That's true but the Suns would not be the 1 or 2 seed with Lebron instead of Nash. The pieces just don't match.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I think that's absurd. Have you actually seen LeBron play? He matches with any pieces, particularly with pieces named Marion and Amare.

[razor]

I'd probably agree with you if Nash wasn't from my home town.

[college_boy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That's true but the Suns would not be the 1 or 2 seed with Lebron instead of Nash. The pieces just don't match.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I think that's absurd. Have you actually seen LeBron play? He matches with any pieces, particularly with pieces named Marion and Amare.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I've seen Lebron play. The Suns don't need more scoring. They need a pure point guard who will get the ball where it needs to be efficiently.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That's true but the Suns would not be the 1 or 2 seed with Lebron instead of Nash. The pieces just don't match.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I think that's absurd. Have you actually seen LeBron play? He matches with any pieces, particularly with pieces named Marion and Amare.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I've seen Lebron play. The Suns don't need more scoring. They need a pure point guard who will get the ball where it needs to be efficiently.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, James can't pass the ball at all. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

If he's averaging 7.6 assists with the stiffs he's got around him, imagine what he'd do with guys who actually know how to score the basketball while playing an uptempo style that gives an extra 25 posessions a game.

[Steve McQueen]

Iverson is putting up good scoring numbers because the 76ers have no one else who is good at shooting the ball. His 3pt percentage is under 30%, and his FG% is around 40%. He shoots 25 shots a game so of course he's going to put up some decent point numbers, but I'd still take Francis over him anyday.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
If he's averaging 7.6 assists with the stiffs he's got around him, imagine what he'd do with guys who actually know how to score the basketball while playing an uptempo style that gives an extra 25 posessions a game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, all we can do is "imagine" it.
This is a tough debate, but I'm just not sure James could run the Suns quite as well as Nash does.

[Clarkmeister]

TMac's %'s aint so hot either (Jacking over 6 threes a game at 33%?? ugh), and unlike Iverson he doesn't bother to play D. Both are overrated, but at least Iverson gives you 100% every night and on both ends of the court.

[college_boy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That's true but the Suns would not be the 1 or 2 seed with Lebron instead of Nash. The pieces just don't match.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I think that's absurd. Have you actually seen LeBron play? He matches with any pieces, particularly with pieces named Marion and Amare.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I've seen Lebron play. The Suns don't need more scoring. They need a pure point guard who will get the ball where it needs to be efficiently.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, James can't pass the ball at all. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

If he's averaging 7.6 assists with the stiffs he's got around him, imagine what he'd do with guys who actually know how to score the basketball while playing an uptempo style that gives an extra 25 posessions a game.

[/ QUOTE ]

APG aren't the end all of being a good point gaurd. However, Lebron is averaging 7.6 assists per while turning the ball over 3.3 times per game. Nash is averaging over 11 assists per game and turning the ball over 3.1 times per contest. Nash is significantly more efficient than Lebron. Plus Steve Nash does a lot of things with the ball that don't show up in the stats.

[Clarkmeister]

"Plus Steve Nash does a lot of things with the ball that don't show up in the stats. "

He better since Lebron is averaging an additional 10ppg, 4rpg, 1spg and 1bpg. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Clarkmeister]

"Nash is significantly more efficient than Lebron"

Not according to the NBA's own efficiency ratings. (http://www.nba.com/statistics/2004/default_regular_season_leaders/LeagueLeadersEFFQuery.html?topic=0&stat=27)

[sublime]

NBA MVP

isnt the NBA locked out?

[college_boy]

Stats have little to do with a discussion of the MVP award. Even more so at the pg position.

[Phoenix1010]

[ QUOTE ]
Iverson is putting up good scoring numbers because the 76ers have no one else who is good at shooting the ball. His 3pt percentage is under 30%, and his FG% is around 40%. He shoots 25 shots a game so of course he's going to put up some decent point numbers, but I'd still take Francis over him anyday.

[/ QUOTE ]

You forgot to mention that AI is fourth in the league in assists. Saying that he leads the league in scoring because his teammates aren't great really undermines what he does. You can't say that someone averaging 29 points does so only because no one else can shoot. You have to be a good player to score points. You have to be a great player to lead the league in scoring, regardless of who's around you. This is why Antoine Walker is not in the top 20.

Yes, his shooting percentages are quite low. But anyone who leads the league in scoring while being in the top five in assists is one of the most valuable players. He's always been a great scorer, but his game has really reached a new level now that he's improved his passing. I really think he would be a championship contender if he had a better supporting cast.

Regards,
Steve

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
Stats have little to do with a discussion of the MVP award. Even more so at the pg position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn, and I was agreeing with you right up until you made this post.

*BUZZER*

[tbach24]

Unlike MLB, you really can't judge the importance of a player to a team by statistics in the NBA.

[banditbdl]

[ QUOTE ]
Plus Steve Nash does a lot of things with the ball that don't show up in the stats.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about all the things that Steve does without the ball... like say for instance getting blown by on the defensive end?

[college_boy]

[ QUOTE ]
"Nash is significantly more efficient than Lebron"

Not according to the NBA's own efficiency ratings. (http://www.nba.com/statistics/2004/default_regular_season_leaders/LeagueLeadersEFFQuery.html?topic=0&stat=27)

[/ QUOTE ]

My comment was specific to being a playmaker. Espn's formula takes into account scoring, rebounding, steals etc. That said, ESPN contributers know little to nothing about the technical aspects of basketball

[mcb]

Gotta be Lebron. Nash is a great point guard but lebron has the all around game. His shot has improved ten fold and his passing has always been top notch. He has turned his team around almost by himself in his two years.

[college_boy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Stats have little to do with a discussion of the MVP award. Even more so at the pg position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn, and I was agreeing with you right up until you made this post.

*BUZZER*

[/ QUOTE ]


Being good at basketball has little to do with stats. Very few to no good basketball coaches would disagree with that.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
He has turned his team around almost by himself in his two years.

[/ QUOTE ]

And Nash has turned the Suns around in one year almost by himself.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
Being good at basketball has little to do with stats. Very few to no good basketball coaches would disagree with that.

[/ QUOTE ]

And?

That's not what we're talking about here. The MVP is decided by many things. Stats are a huge part of that decision.

[Josh W]

I think that Nash v Lebron is an interesting comparison, especially when considering their roles on the suns.

But Lebron's success (if he were moved onto the Suns) NOW is substantially different than if he were moved onto the Suns at the beginning of the year.

See, Nash has taught that team how to pass. He's taught them how to run. He's taught them how to move without the ball.

If Lebron were to take over now with the team concept that is already in place, he of course would have immeasurable success. With his court vision, youth, and never ending abilities, he'd have more success than Nash. But that's only because Nash has already laid the ground work.

If Lebron took over before Nash ever had his influence, Lebron would have a lot less success.

I think.

Josh

[Phoenix1010]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That's true but the Suns would not be the 1 or 2 seed with Lebron instead of Nash. The pieces just don't match.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I think that's absurd. Have you actually seen LeBron play? He matches with any pieces, particularly with pieces named Marion and Amare.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good point. However I really don't think there's a substitute for Steve Nash in the system that the Suns play. The run-and-gun style is the only thing they can do to mask the fact that they have a smallish power forward masquerading as a center and a small forward playing the 4. If you give them a point guard that doesn't run that kind of game extremely well, the Suns will not be as successful. Lebron is a great player who matches well with just about anything, but a fast, pure point guard is the key to the Suns style. In my opinion, only Nash or Jason Kidd could pull it off well enough to earn a 1 or 2 seed like the Suns are doing now.

[Clarkmeister]

"Being good at basketball has little to do with stats. Very few to no good basketball coaches would disagree with me. "

Being good at basketball involves playing defense too. Something Nash could use a few lessons on.

[istewart]

MVP is not the best player. James is the best player. Nash is the MVP. It was made clear when he was out. VERY CLEAR.

[mcb]

I'm not sure if you are serious. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif Amarie Stoudemire, Shawn Marion, Quenten Richardson, Joe Johnson, oh yeah and this other guy named Amarie Stoudemire. This line-up is disgusting with or without Nash.

[Phoenix1010]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He has turned his team around almost by himself in his two years.

[/ QUOTE ]

And Nash has turned the Suns around in one year almost by himself.

[/ QUOTE ]

That, and the Suns are one of the top two teams in the entire league. The Cavs are not even the best team in their division. Team success plays a larger role in MVP voting than a lot of people seem to think. Getting your team a 5th or 6th seed in the playoffs all by yourself is great, but it won't necessarily win the MVP votes.

[Phoenix1010]

[ QUOTE ]
MVP is not the best player. James is the best player. Nash is the MVP. It was made clear when he was out. VERY CLEAR.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo.

[college_boy]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure if you are serious. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif Amarie Stoudemire, Shawn Marion, Quenten Richardson, Joe Johnson, oh yeah and this other guy named Amarie Stoudemire. This line-up is disgusting with or without Nash.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only differences in that lineup from last year are Nash and Q. Why the turnaround?

[AngryCola]

Unfortunately, I believe this to be an academic argument.

Shaq has been the MVP and will probably be the MVP until he retires.

But it wouldn't be "fair" to give it to him every year.

*DISCLAIMER*
I'm not a Shaq or Heat fan.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
The only differences in that lineup from last year are Nash and Q. Why the turnaround?

[/ QUOTE ]

We have a winner.

[Phoenix1010]

[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately, I believe this to be an academic argument.

Shaq has been the MVP and will probably be the MVP until he retires.

But it wouldn't be "fair" to give it to him every year.

*DISCLAIMER*
I'm not a Shaq or Heat fan.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to grudgingly agree. however, I think Lebron will overtake him as early as two years from now, if not next year.

[college_boy]

[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately, I believe this to be an academic argument.

Shaq has been the MVP and will probably be the MVP until he retires.

But it wouldn't be "fair" to give it to him every year.

*DISCLAIMER*
I'm not a Shaq or Heat fan.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the truth

[Phoenix1010]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The only differences in that lineup from last year are Nash and Q. Why the turnaround?

[/ QUOTE ]

We have a winner.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is clearly all about the Quentin Richardson factor.

[mcb]

The same reason Lebron has played so much better this year, experience. Stoudemire has become a ton better over his three years, from 12 ppg to close to 30. Johnson has struggled but is also getting comfortable. Marion hasn't changed much from what I've seen. If I were to vote I would go with Lebron. Nash has only started playing at such great levels since he came to Pheonix from Dallas. In Dallas he did't average nearly as many aps. He has a team this year who can put the ball away down low. This is my opinion and it stands /images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
Nash has only started playing at such great levels since he came to Pheonix from Dallas. In Dallas he did't average nearly as many aps.

[/ QUOTE ]

HUH?!!?!?

I'm fairly sure he was first or second in APG last year.
He led that category most of the year.
I hope you aren't somehow arguing that this year he's first, "but with slightly better stats".

The only reason Nash seems to be better now that he isn't in Dallas is because of the different styles of the teams.

[mcb]

He is averaging 3 more per game this year. I just don't get why he wasn't more heavily considered for MVP last year as well if this is the case.

[college_boy]

[ QUOTE ]
He is averaging 3 more per game this year. I just don't get why he wasn't more heavily considered for MVP last year as well if this is the case.

[/ QUOTE ]

The answer should be self evident.

[mcb]

Then fill me in, is it because he has a supporting cast that can actually work with him? Is it because stoudemire is one of the top players in the NBA? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Phoenix1010]

[ QUOTE ]
The same reason Lebron has played so much better this year, experience. Stoudemire has become a ton better over his three years, from 12 ppg to close to 30. Johnson has struggled but is also getting comfortable. Marion hasn't changed much from what I've seen. If I were to vote I would go with Lebron. Nash has only started playing at such great levels since he came to Pheonix from Dallas. In Dallas he did't average nearly as many aps. He has a team this year who can put the ball away down low. This is my opinion and it stands /images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nash averaged 8.8 assists last year. 3rd place.

[istewart]

Kidd is typically ahead of Nash in APG I believe, in past years.

And why do fans vote for the All Star game? VINSANITY???

[mcb]

He averages over 11 this year, if I'm not mistaken.

[college_boy]

Fans are the NBA's only concern because they are its sole source of revenue.

[Joe826]

this is out of hand. the suns without nash would be worse or possibly as good the cavs without james.. when they have nash, they're way better. sorry clarky, but there's no debate here /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

[Clarkmeister]

"the suns without nash would be worse or possibly as good the cavs without james"

Marion, Amare, Quentin, Joe < Ilgauskas, Gooden, McInnis, Newble?????? What are you smoking?

[AngryCola]

Ilgauskas is the man.

[andyfox]

If they changed teams, do you think the Spurs would win more with Garnett? I don't. And I think Duncan would improve the T-wolves.

And I have tremendous respect for Garnett.

[holeplug]

I just don't think you can give the MVP to someone that is such a liability on the defensive side of the court.

[mikeyvegas]

[ QUOTE ]
Being good at basketball involves playing defense too. Something Nash could use a few lessons on.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the best point you've made in this thread. But seriously, I really don't think 'Bron shoots well enough from the outside to do what Nash is doing in Phoenix. It's very close, but how can anyone not vote for Duncan. The Spurs do have the best record in the league.

[mikeyvegas]

[ QUOTE ]
If they changed teams, do you think the Spurs would win more with Garnett? I don't. And I think Duncan would improve the T-wolves.

And I have tremendous respect for Garnett.

[/ QUOTE ]

I concur.

[Bulldog]

Did I really just read 80-odd posts without someone making a case for Stoudamire as MVP? The only guy in the top ten in scoring shooting over 50%, and he's at 57%. Gets his 26 ppg on 16 shots.

[Phoenix1010]

Defense is a very important aspect of the game, but it's not the only way to beat the other team. As opposed to a grinding defensive team like the Pistons, the Suns are very much geared toward outscoring the other team. Even if Steve Nash were Gary Payton in his prime, the Suns would not be stopping anyone without a true center or power forward. However, if your opponent scores 100 points, and you score 120, it's still a convincing win. What matters is how successful the system is, and who makes it work. The Sun's have the second best record in the league after a poor year last year, and Nash is the cornerstone to everything they do.

[Phoenix1010]

[ QUOTE ]
Did I really just read 80-odd posts without someone making a case for Stoudamire as MVP? The only guy in the top ten in scoring shooting over 50%, and he's at 57%. Gets his 26 ppg on 16 shots.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's clear that his unusually high production is a result of the Nash factor. Just look at what he did when Nash was out. If he was capable of getting as many easy shots and scoring as many points due to his own talent, or did something like get 10 rebounds a game (he is supposed to be a center, right?), I think you could make a case for him. I don't think you can give it to him, as he is mostly just a recipient of Nash's much larger contribution.

[Clarkmeister]

"it's not the only way to beat the other team"

It's the only way to win an NBA title. Going back to the Pistons of the late 1980's, every NBA champ since then has been an outstanding defensive team with the possible exception of Houston.

There's a reason that Nash's more talented Dallas teams never got out of the west and his current less talented Suns team will meet the same fate.

[Phoenix1010]

[ QUOTE ]
"it's not the only way to beat the other team"

It's the only way to win an NBA title. Going back to the Pistons of the late 1980's, every NBA champ since then has been an outstanding defensive team with the possible exception of Houston.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quite true, which is why I don't think Steve Nash will win Finals MVP.

[ethan]

[ QUOTE ]
"Nash is significantly more efficient than Lebron"

Not according to the NBA's own efficiency ratings. (http://www.nba.com/statistics/2004/default_regular_season_leaders/LeagueLeadersEFFQuery.html?topic=0&stat=27)

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus. That's one hell of a statistic.

[ QUOTE ]
Efficiency Formula: ((PTS + REB + AST + STL + BLK) - ((FGA - FGM) + (FTA - FTM) + TO)) / G

[/ QUOTE ]

[hmohnphd]

[ QUOTE ]
Nash has only started playing at such great levels since he came to Pheonix from Dallas. In Dallas he did't average nearly as many aps.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is utterly ridiculous. Nash has been one of the NBA's elite point guards for several years now. In fact, I would be hard-pressed to name more than one who has performed better over the last 4 years.