50+5: Would you have called w/57o on a flush draw/gut straight draw? [Archive]

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AA suited

02-05-2005, 12:12 PM

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG (t1895)
Button (t1230)
SB (t4155)
HERO (t2720)

Preflop: HERO is BB with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
2 folds, SB completes, HERO checks.

Flop: (t800) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB bets t400, HERO calls t400.

Turn: (t1600) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB checks, HERO checks.

River: (t1600) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB bets t400, HERO calls t400.

Final Pot: t2400

normally, when someone just completes the sb at these blind levels, it screams monster.

normally, i would interpret a min bet on this kind of flop as "i have KK, but that Ace and 3 diamonds scare me."

But my read on the villian is that he's been bullying with his big stack. he has min raise on the button w/garbage, although i've never seen him just complete as sb before.

i have a flush draw, a gut draw and a backdoor straight flush draw, giving me 12 outs, which none may be live.

with 12 outs, i need 3:1 to call. so his min bet gave me pot odds, assuming all 12 outs were live.

on the turn, i would have folded if he bet even though i paired up, since there's a chance he may bet on the river.

a min bet on the river either shows weakness or is value betting. but if he had something, he would have bet on the turn so in this case i read it as weakness. so i'm thinking my middle pair has a chance. right/wrong??

1) given my read, should i still have called his bet on the flop since none of my outs maybe live?

2) should i have called his bet on the river?

3) if you were the villian, and had KK, how would you handle this kind of flop on all streets???

Hawkeye27

02-05-2005, 12:55 PM

I don't play the 50's but I would've played this hand exactly the same.

1. In the 20's I see the big stack limp in and bet any flop alot. I like to raise here with any pair to see where I'm at, because they will usually fold. Since you say a limp screams monster at this level I like your call.

2. I think you have to call the river.

3. Depends if I have the K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif., but I would definately bet more than 400. Without the K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif I want to win the pot on the flop with a pot sized bet and check on the turn if called. With the K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif I'd bet around T600 on the flop and 800ish on the turn. But I'm still learning, lol, how would u play KK on that flop?

Awesemo

02-05-2005, 02:04 PM

This seems like a clear fold to me on the flop. Why spend 400 chips chasing a marginal draw when you can fold and use those 400 chips later to steal? Also, if you do call on the flop and he checks to you on the turn, you should probably make a bet to steal the pot. Of the times he calls you'll have position on him on the river and probably can get a free showdown.

adanthar

02-05-2005, 02:28 PM

Use SSH, if you have it, to count your outs on this flop and then think about how many you have.

Hint: It's not 12, and you don't have anywhere *near* 'a flush draw and a gutshot' in the commonly used meaning of that sentence.

bigredlemon

02-05-2005, 04:37 PM

looks like there's a high chance of you drawing very slim or dead, and in the odd chance you do have the best hand, you can't get the villain to pay you off. What were you doing in there!?

AA suited

02-05-2005, 05:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
looks like there's a high chance of you drawing very slim or dead, and in the odd chance you do have the best hand, you can't get the villain to pay you off. What were you doing in there!?

[/ QUOTE ]

i put him as a bully and trying to buy the pot on the flop. i was pretty sure he didn't have a hand. but then again, neither did i. yeah, i should have folded and picked a better time to fight a battle.

he had 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gifk /images/graemlins/heart.gif so i got lucky when i paired on the turn.

willie24

02-06-2005, 03:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
1) given my read, should i still have called his bet on the flop since none of my outs maybe live?

[/ QUOTE ]

no. this is a horrendous call. if it were down to heads-up a case could be made for pushing, but pushing would be equally as terrible as calling here. he's likely to call with a whole bunch of hands that he thinks are drawing, but are really winning (plus his made hands). you are on the bubble and don't need this pot that bad.

by calling you are paying 1/6 of your stack to see out an absolutely terrible draw that is more likely to eliminate you that double you up-even if it hits. you need that 400 to bully around the other small stacks. why are you risking it here?

[ QUOTE ]
2) should i have called his bet on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]
getting 5:1 and considering the previous action, you are right to call here.

[ QUOTE ]
3) if you were the villian, and had KK, how would you handle this kind of flop on all streets???

[/ QUOTE ]
i would have pushed preflop. but assuming that i just completed in sb, i would probably check-raise push regardless of whether or not I had a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. i'm not certain though