spot the donkey

[stripsqueez]

paradise 5/10 draw

the ok SB open raises and i look at 8 8 8 Q 5 - i call and pitch the Q as the SB buys 3

SB bets - i raise

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Nick709]

Seems standard. Was there a question at all here?

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
Seems standard. Was there a question at all here?

[/ QUOTE ]

if i tell you the question then as usual its most of the answer

i was curious if this was a standard line - i've been profitably playing draw on-line for a long time but i've never taken this line before

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[3rdEye]

I'm not too familiar with draw strategy, so I just wanted some clarification: You pitched the Q because other players are more likely to have high cards, giving you better odds to draw to your boat, right?

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not too familiar with draw strategy, so I just wanted some clarification: You pitched the Q because other players are more likely to have high cards, giving you better odds to draw to your boat, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

i draw 2 a bit to 3 of a kind - for reasonably obvious reasons i was only drawing 1 here - when i draw 1 i just always pitch the higher card - i doubt pitching the higher card adds much if at all to my prospects of drawing a full house

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not too familiar with draw strategy, so I just wanted some clarification: You pitched the Q because other players are more likely to have high cards, giving you better odds to draw to your boat, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

i draw 2 a bit to 3 of a kind - for reasonably obvious reasons i was only drawing 1 here - when i draw 1 i just always pitch the higher card - i doubt pitching the higher card adds much if at all to my prospects of drawing a full house

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[/ QUOTE ]

good play imo. You can't draw 2 here, obviously. 3betting preflop might be ok as well, but you want postdraw value.

[BluffTHIS!]

I think you played this perfectly. By drawing 1, you false carded and thus made him think you were on a draw or drawing to 2 low pair. And since you already had trips, I would pitch a face card too since it is in fact more likely for him to be holding a high pair. 3 betting pre-draw is also an option, as the other poster noted, in which case you still toss 1 to disguise your hand.

In the case you were 4 bet though, I would pitch 2 cards as it would then be much more likely he had trips himself, in which case you gain a better, albeit small, chance of making quads.

You did not state this was limit, but all our posts assume it was. False carding in the draw is even more potent in pot limit due the higher payoff you get if the other player makes like aces up which he probably won't fold to a reraise unless he stronly believes you successfully completed a draw.

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
3betting preflop might be ok as well, but you want postdraw value.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats the bit thats new to me - i am always happy to just 3 bet pre-draw - it was a 5/10 limit game so post-draw is double pre-draw and i figured to get a bet or 2 in post-draw - if he checked post-draw then he would probably feel obliged to call my bet

sounds good but i still have issues - if i had say 4 of a suit and no pair in the same spot pre-draw i would usually fold - so an observant opponent should nearly always put me on this hand - in other words i have no hand to mimic by taking this line against a good opponent

i suppose this line will work for a while till the regulars get used to it - after that i guess its a change up for the uncomplicated, mr more, usual chook bashing

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
sounds good but i still have issues - if i had say 4 of a suit and no pair in the same spot pre-draw i would usually fold - so an observant opponent should nearly always put me on this hand - in other words i have no hand to mimic by taking this line against a good opponent


[/ QUOTE ]

This is not true, especially in pot limit. Playing this way with trips is exactly the same as you would play two low pair as well as a draw. And you should OCCASIONALLY indeed draw even headsup to a flush or straight in order to create additional doubt. How often is occasionally? Probably just once a session headsup in pot limit or twice in limit, as long as your hand gets shown so it has that effect.

You should also know, again mainly in pot limit, that good players will often false card in this manner when they get the only or last raise in, especially in position, holding a pair of aces or kings in order to inhibit post draw bets/bluffs so they can check down an unimproved hand.

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
This is not true, especially in pot limit. Playing this way with trips is exactly the same as you would play two low pair as well as a draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

i would never play 2 pair this way - no opponent will play me for 2 pair that just called pre-draw heads up in the blinds

[ QUOTE ]
You should also know, again mainly in pot limit, that good players will often false card in this manner when they get the only or last raise in, especially in position, holding a pair of aces or kings in order to inhibit post draw bets/bluffs so they can check down an unimproved hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah i do that although i dislike only drawing 1 to a big pair because it hurts my chances of improvement significantly - this is the reason why i sometimes draw 2 to 3 of a kind because i often swing a high card with a high pair with position to avoid the post-draw bluff

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Klak]

i think you should draw 2 since many people that draw 2 when they have a big pair and keep a "kicker". most people will think that you are trying to bluff trips.

[schubes]

I think I was at this table, don't remember hand though.

Why not draw 2 if you're gonna flat call predraw? Drawing one here seems to represent a come hand - SB might check 2 pair after draw, and is less likely to bluff with a small unimproved pair. Drawing 2 without raising tends to represent a vulnerable pair and encourages a bet, imo.

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I was at this table, don't remember hand though.

Why not draw 2 if you're gonna flat call predraw? Drawing one here seems to represent a come hand - SB might check 2 pair after draw, and is less likely to bluff with a small unimproved pair. Drawing 2 without raising tends to represent a vulnerable pair and encourages a bet, imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats a reasonable plan but i dont ever swing a kicker with a view to improving so again its a bit of an issue in terms of balancing my usual routine

i go by my 2+2 handle on paradise - i was curious if other 2+2 er's frequent the game - i got brown trouted last night but the player concerned declined to tell me thier 2+2 handle

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[beset7]

I play draw at PP but not 5/10. I think there are a lot of 2+2ers that play in the 3/6 and 5/10. I know of at least three.

A side note, I've encountered the brown trout thing before. Where the hell did this aphorism come from!?