What do you think of this river raise? [Archive]

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TripleH68

02-05-2005, 04:44 AM

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB here is a thinking player, a little erratic, too loose and aggressive preflop. His play is a little weird and I kind of stumbled into my play...I believe it to be my first ever river bluff-raise. What do you think? What do you put the villain on?

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif. MP2 posts a blind of $2.
Hero raises, 3 folds, MP3 calls, 2 folds, SB 3-bets, BB calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (13 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero calls, MP3 folds, SB folds.

River: (10.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises...

rmarotti

02-05-2005, 07:15 AM

Wow. I see absolutely no value in this raise. Am i missing something?

pecto

02-05-2005, 08:10 AM

Can you beat anything??

DeeJ

02-05-2005, 08:29 AM

Hero : [ QUOTE ]
I believe it to be my first ever river bluff-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
rmarotti: [ QUOTE ]
Am I missing something?

[/ QUOTE ]

It was a bluff. It may or may not have worked /images/graemlins/smile.gif

sean c

02-05-2005, 10:16 AM

Three bets PF I'm guessing it didn't. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

rmarotti

02-05-2005, 10:22 AM

Unless Pokerstars plays wildly different from party I think this is a -EV play.

sean c

02-05-2005, 10:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Unless Pokerstars plays wildly different from party I think this is a -EV play.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is -EV online, live or on mars. If it woked once great but no way is the a +EV play.

Derek in NYC

02-05-2005, 11:03 AM

I think it villain has some kind of a hand with showdown value due to his preflop three-bet, unless you were playing LAGgy, in which case he could have been trying to isolation raise you with a broader range of hands. But I would give him credit for a pair TT-AA, maybe more given his stop-go. By contrast, given your prior action, it is hard to give you credit for any big hand.

A flush is implausible. You raised preflop, called a three-bet, and bet the flop. This smells like an overpair, or top pair. Clubs were only a backdoor draw on the flop, so as an initial matter, I'd say a club flush is improbable. The only hand giving you a flush and consistent with your bet pattern is A /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif or, to a lesser degree, A /images/graemlins/club.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif.

I think it is also hard to give you credit for pocket jacks, due to your passivity on 4th street.

Your hand can't hold a 6 and make you the preflop raiser, nor can you have spiked a set anywhere along the line due to the ragged lowcards on the board.

Bottom line, I call 100% of the time as villain, if I'm holding a pair. The only hand you can beat is a bluff.

Warchant88

02-05-2005, 11:42 AM

Fold UTG, and fold the turn.

shadow29

02-05-2005, 11:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold UTG

[/ QUOTE ]

Weak.

Warchant88

02-05-2005, 11:51 AM

Could you explain a little?

shadow29

02-05-2005, 11:56 AM

KQo is a good hand, certainly better than most of your opponents hands. According to PokerRoom, it's a 0.06 EV hand from UTG. It's a value raise and you're giving up a lot by simply calling or worse, folding.

Warchant88

02-05-2005, 11:59 AM

All right, thanks for giving the math example. /images/graemlins/smile.gif I just think that KQo is a trouble hand, and I try to avoid it in EP.

shadow29

02-05-2005, 12:10 PM

Trouble hands are for NL. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

KQo is a good hand in limit.

TimmyMayes

02-05-2005, 12:41 PM

Yeah if you are folding KQo in EP you are missing some value if the game is loose, and you are posting in the small stakes forum so it is...

Cheers,
Timothy

BWebb

02-05-2005, 01:00 PM

Your bet on the flop into 3 opponents, one of which is a preflop 3-bettor is very bad.

27offsooot

02-05-2005, 02:12 PM

Bad place for a bluff raise. BB is betting into a PFR raiser and flop better on the turn. All you can get to lay down is an ace high bluff and i don't think that he's bluffing.

TripleH68

02-05-2005, 08:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB here is a thinking player, a little erratic, too loose and aggressive preflop. His play is a little weird and I kind of stumbled into my play...I believe it to be my first ever river bluff-raise. What do you think? What do you put the villain on?

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif. MP2 posts a blind of $2.
Hero raises, 3 folds, MP3 calls, 2 folds, SB 3-bets, BB calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (13 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero calls, MP3 folds, SB folds.

River: (10.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises...

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is my thinking plain and simple...
-SB 3-bets preflop and then checks flop and turn with J high on board? Either he holds 99, TT or AK or he is a knucklehead or both.
-BB called two cold preflop, check called the flop, then bet out on the turn to knock me off my overcards...river for value.

So calling the turn felt a little funny with two players to act and possibly only four fuzzy outs. Heads up on the river I have obviously lost the showdown...and am getting 11.5 to 2 or roughly 5.5 to one on the bluff. Does he lay down one out of five?

I am not sure what he had because he layed it down. It must not have been that good then and I am surely not trying to say my play was a good one. Just a different one. Thanks for any further comments.