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View Full Version : Flame away, I called a big raise w/ T8s.


Tyler Durden
02-04-2005, 07:25 PM
Stars $50 NL SNG.
Level One, 10/20.

I have about t1900.

4 limpers to me on the button and I limp w/ T8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
BB raises to 240. Folded back to me and I call. He has about t1400. Heads up.

Any merit in this? Can anything rationalize it?

Let's discuss.

thanks.

boedeker
02-04-2005, 07:39 PM
you can rationalize it with the fact that you might be sitting on a heater and if you hit; you will likely bust him.

but im a big fan of the suited gappers.

Laughingboy
02-04-2005, 07:44 PM
[ QUOTE ]

Any merit in this? Can anything rationalize it?


[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be wary of trying to rationalize a poor play. In fact, one of the worst things that could have happened to you is for you to win this hand.

There are 130 chips in the pot and it's 220 to you. By calling you're laying almost 2/1 with a hand that is mediocre at best. The only possible upsides are:

1) In the unlikely event you do hit a huge hand, it will be very difficult for your opponent to realize it.
2) If your opponent's hand is crippled by the flop (say he has KK and there's an ace) you may be able to bluff him out of it.

Neither of these is worth risking such a large percentage of your stack.

Tyler Durden
02-04-2005, 07:52 PM
[ QUOTE ]
ay he has KK and there's an ace)

[/ QUOTE ]

Who raises to 240 w/ KK after 5 ppl limp for 20?

Ricky Slade
02-04-2005, 07:56 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Stars $50 NL SNG.
Level One, 10/20.

I have about t1900.

4 limpers to me on the button and I limp w/ T8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
BB raises to 240. Folded back to me and I call. He has about t1400. Heads up.

Any merit in this? Can anything rationalize it?

Let's discuss.

thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]


BB raised like that, especially in level one, is likely trying to steal the pot. Can't rationalize calling unless you would like to slow play and setup a steal. If the flop comes out all low card rags, it is likely BB has A-x, so if he checks or places a weak bet, you raise, he will fold.
If an Ace hits on the flop, you should fold.

esbesb
02-04-2005, 08:03 PM
Yes, there is merit, and yes, you can rationalize it, and you have been thinking about doing this for a long time in the back of your mind, and you finally did it. Good for you (though, I'm not sure whether or not it should become a habit).

Here's how I see it: This raise is too big to want a call. So, he probably has a high unpaired hand along the lines of AK. In my experience, small pairs want to see the flop cheap to try and flop a set. I think this is a guy who wants to take the pot down now, with a hand he doesn't want to play out of position.

The key, of course, is position. The flop is going to hit him one time in three. And when it misses, he will be as scared of you as you are of him. Like my mom always used to say about bees.

The other key is that you are heads up now. And this makes it much easier to play. Because you only have to evaluate one guy.

So, the flop comes. And you look at the flop. And you look at his action. And you try to get an understanding of whether he's strong or weak. And if you think he's weak, you make a play at it. And, I bet that you take down the pot with a 400 chip bet fairly often.

The guy's got something to lose, too. That's another thing working against him. He has 1400 chips left. You can bust him. But if he folds post-flop and just gets on with the next hand, he can still get something done. He knows that. He is not going to be pot committed to this pot, which is another good thing about what you did. I wouldn't make this play against a guy with only 700 chips left.

The play is also good for your metagame image. People are less likely to mess with you when they regard you as either, (a) wild and crazy, or (b) shrewd.

Also, while having 1900 chips is never a license to piss them away, you do have the ability to try a move like this without yourself getting committed to the pot.

Finally, T8s is a hand with potential. So, something great might happen, and you might flop a flush or a straight or something terrific, like that. Or, the flop might come KT8 and you bust him. You never know.

So, bottom line, I think it is OK. Not great maybe, but OK. And good for you for giving it a whirl. Nothing wrong with a little creativity.

Laughingboy
02-04-2005, 08:10 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ay he has KK and there's an ace)

[/ QUOTE ]

Who raises to 240 w/ KK after 5 ppl limp for 20?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't catch that you're on Stars the first time I read your post. Perhaps this is a good point there. On Party I've seen people open-push on the first hand with AA. There's just no telling /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Laughingboy
02-04-2005, 08:14 PM
I agree with the basic premise that you need to mix up your play and be creative to keep your opponents off balance. I also agree that chances are he doesn't want a call and is just looking to try and take the pot down. Still, I doubt he has nothing at all. He could have QJ, Ax, KJ, a small pair, etc. Any one of these hands is favored to beat you here.

Mix it up, but not when it costs 15% of your stack early on to do it. Call a small raise like 3bb and nail someone with suited connectors. You'll get the same benefits, without nearly as much risk.

esbesb
02-04-2005, 08:29 PM
So what if his hand is a favorite to beat you?

I exagerate only slightly. That would be highly relevant if it was an all in situation where all five cards are going to be seen and there will be no post flop play, and where, most importantly, the players are going to a showdown to actually see who has the best hand. (Even as it is, T8s against AK is not that far removed from a coinflip, by the way). But what we are looking at here is an opportunity to outplay him post flop and get him to fold. I think that can be done often enough to think that this might be a reasonable play. Look, the two times in three that the flop does not help his hand, he is really going to gulp and wonder what you have that you called that big gigantic raise. This is not about who has the best hand, it is about who can take the pot down.

FWIW, I think villian needs to come out firing on the flop no matter what comes down. But he might not know that.

Laughingboy
02-04-2005, 08:33 PM
[ QUOTE ]
But what we are looking at here is an opportunity to outplay him post flop and get him to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with you. There's nothing like the rush of taking down a pot with nothing but cojones and a little deception. I just don't think the prospect is worth the cost here. The more likely scenario is you'll just lose a hefty percentage of your stack.

BigHobo
02-04-2005, 09:45 PM
[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I think villian needs to come out firing on flop no matter what comes down. But he might not know that.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the problem that I see with the strategy. It's not that often that I see a large raiser check on the flop and give an opportunity for Hero to steal (unless he flops a monster and is going for the CR). If villain places any sizable bet out there on the flop Hero is in a must-fold situation. If Hero were first to act on the flop I'd feel much better about this play.

Danielih
02-04-2005, 10:18 PM
nope not really dude. Just give it up.

Tyler Durden
02-05-2005, 04:51 AM
So I called the raise and we were heads up.

Flop came 776 rainbow, one/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

My opponent bets out just t290, exactly half the pot. This made me more confident that he just had overcards. I raised to 1k and he folded.

If he makes a more assertive flop bet I would have been fine with folding.

Danielih
02-05-2005, 09:25 AM
I feel so sorry for you.

citanul
02-05-2005, 02:22 PM
4 limpers, plus you is 5, let's assume the sb folded, since you didn't say he called.

That's 6x20+10 chips already in the pot, otherwise known as 130.

Using the somewhat standard daliman fomula of 3x(bb) + 1.5 or 2x(limpers) we would get a raise somewhere in the range of 60 + 150 = 210 and 60 + 200 = 260 chips. So, basically, if I was going to raise up this pot, that's probably right around what I'd be raising to, 240. Personally, this early on, I'm probably only raising up from the bb with this tiny pot with a quite decent hand. AK or AKs are probably right on the bottom end of things, if I raise them, which I don't know if I do every time, or at all.

Then the flop comes, and it comes blah, blah, blah.

If I'm betting out, my bet is going to be somewhere between 1/2 and 3/4 of the pot almost every time. Especially if I think that the other player in the pot is the type of player who is going to try to take pots away from me all th time, I'm going to bet my best hands a little softer, since these kinds of idiots really seem to think that you can interpret bet sizes exactly for meaning. This all works out ok when the guy folds instantly, but when you get called or reraised and have to fold your complete bluff, not so much. I understand in this hand you have some kind of draw, but not exactly the kind you want to run against Aces for all your chipos. Also, there are lots of people, especially at the lower end-ish sngs that will run out AK every time on this flop. I'd at least want to have some kind of idea about my opponent before I played this hand in this fashion.

As another poster said, I kinda feel that the worst thing that can happen on a hand like this is that HERO wins on the flop with a bluff. It inspires HERO to go around thinking that he played the hand great, when in actuality, he called off a goodly chunk of his hand preflop with junk, then put in more than half his stack on the flop with a junk bluff, and happened to catch someone. I think that it's pretty frequent that HERO loses a lot of chips making this play.

citanul