Flop bottom 2, he called me with jack high!

[BigEndian]

I thought this hand was interesting. The table is filled with 40-50%sf 2%pfr types, with the occaisional exception.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: BigEndian is MP2 with 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, BigEndian calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises (completely random raisor, auto-bets flop on raises)</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, BigEndian calls.

Flop: (14 SB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, BigEndian checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">BigEndian 3-bets</font>, CO folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (13.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG folds, BigEndian...

- Jim

[shadow29]

Hero folds.

I think your pf call is attrocious, however.

[chief444]

folds.

[BigEndian]

Care to explain you're thinking? Not just a marginal call, but attrocious... I'd like to hear it.

Perhaps it's my remark about the random raisor behind me. Say he raises 50% of the time. Bearing in mind that the table is filled with 40-60%sf types, this call is far better than attrocious - it's not even marginal.

- Jim

[The-Matador]

[ QUOTE ]
Care to explain you're thinking? Not just a marginal call, but attrocious... I'd like to hear it.

Perhaps it's my remark about the random raisor behind me. Say he raises 50% of the time. Bearing in mind that the table is filled with 40-60%sf types, this call is far better than attrocious - it's not even marginal.

- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

You know you'll be paying 2 bets to play 23 suited with crummy position. I'd call that an atrocious PF call.

[BigEndian]

Read my post again 3 more times...

- Jim

[The-Matador]

[ QUOTE ]
Read my post again 3 more times...

- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, done. Call's still atrocious.

[eric5148]

3rd vote for horrible pf call.

Easy turn fold.

[chief444]

I wouldn't say it's attrocious, but I'm not crazy about it either. And if CO is raising 50% I really don't like it.

[Tom Martell]

PF call is pretty hard to defend. Your only real prayer is to hit the flush and have it hold up. If you had something like 67s or 78s sure, then you could justify this call on this table. but 23s is a horrible suited connector hand in bad position.

[BigEndian]

Ok...

I chose 50% because it's extreme and I thought it would sum it up right off. If it's 50%, on average I'm paying 1.5 SB to see the flop with the person behind me, with 3 limpers already in and 40-60% of the other seats coming along as well. Probably closer to 60% taking into account the laws of gravity and how they apply to chips.

And that's the extreme case. The cost of entry goes down as his raising approaches something more typical. His actual stats were 75%sf 7%fpr, but his show-downs on his raises showed that he raises random hands.

Edit: Tom, this isn't directed at you specifically. It's a general response to the dissent /images/graemlins/smile.gif


On the remainder of the hand, taking into account the flush draw on the board and the size of this pot it was a little more wishy washy whether to fold the turn.

- Jim

[Buck_65]

Fold this turn, you're definitely way behind drawing to either 0 or 4 outs. BB's line here looks like a 9 to me.

You really shouldn't be making rationalizations for playing this hand in middle position. If you were on the button, this would be much more reasonable (but still not a call I'm making).

[Tom Martell]

Even if he isn't raising that much, I think you will get lots of shots to see flops with tons of people in. You can pick your spots better than 23 suited. It seems like you are trying to force action and take shots at getting some monster flop when you would be better off saving bets and using them when your hand is a little better. Like I said, I think 67s or better is a different story and becomes a clear call at this table.

[chief444]

OK, but it's still 23s. It has the same straight value as 25s. Would you play that? And because you're playing the two lowest cards in the deck you're often subjected to redraws. Plus with any reasonable chance of a preflop raise your implied odds are cut down.

[The-Matador]

When I see a 2 and a 3 in my hand I fold it unless it is suited and I am on the button and every single player in a 10 handed game has called in front of me. Oh wait, I still fold it then, nevermind.

[private joker]

The lowest suited connector I play is 65s, and that's only on a very passive and loose table where I know I can see a cheap flop multi-way. I might complete 54s and 43s from the small blind under certain table conditions. But 32s from MP... not gonna happen.

[BigEndian]

Great point! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

- Jim

[shant]

I'm a big fan of Little Slick Suited, but I also don't call preflop in that spot.

[chesspain]

I fold the turn...and I don't like the PF call either.

[bakku]

Hey BigEndian, I did a quick pokerstove for ya, and these are for totally random hands.

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 15.0657 % [ 00.14 00.01 ] { 32s }
Hand 2: 21.2485 % [ 00.20 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 3: 21.2669 % [ 00.20 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 4: 21.1824 % [ 00.20 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 5: 21.2366 % [ 00.20 00.01 ] { random }

[The Goober]

I'm sorta confused as to why you didn't bet out on the flop. Your line allowed you to trap lots of players for multiple bets, but with the smallest possible 2 pair on a two-tone flop, wouldn't it be better to bet into the PFR and hope he helps you protect your hand by raising?