Backgammon as a poker tool?

[jack spade23]

I've heard and read a lot about succesful poker players being extremely good backgammon players as well. Knowing nothing about the game, I was wondering if someone could enlighten me as to how it helps, or similarities between the two, etc. Thanks!

P.S. Sorry if this isn't the right forum

[BarronVangorToth]

Lots of games can help your brain think in a distinct way which will be beneficial to poker.

Backgammon is one. Chess is certainly another. Many other card games I'd say are likewise as many of the best CCG'ers from Magic can likewise play some poker. I'd also recommend a phenomenal board game from Rio Grande Games called "Puerto Rico."

LOTS of things can keep your synapses firing and your mind thinking through scenarios. There is stimuli everywhere.

(Seriously, though, "Puerto Rico" is amazing.)

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[Al Mirpuri]

Backgammon like poker mixes luck and skill, in poker you have the random distribution of hands and your ability to play them, in backgammon you have the random roll of the dice and your ability to play them.

However, just how useful backgammon play is to poker play, and vice versa, is debatable though there is some overlap with certain conceptual approaches.

[Bluffoon]

[ QUOTE ]
I've heard and read a lot about succesful poker players being extremely good backgammon players as well. Knowing nothing about the game, I was wondering if someone could enlighten me as to how it helps, or similarities between the two, etc. Thanks!

P.S. Sorry if this isn't the right forum

[/ QUOTE ]

In backgammon you have to do even more mathematical calulations and you have to do them quickly. This is good training for pot odds calculations and such.

Learning to count cards at blackjack is another skill that will help you develop you ability to gather and process information quickly.

Also in backgammon you have to make a lot of judgements with incomplete information, especially when handling the betting cube. This ability to develop judgement also transfers well to poker.

Backgammon for me is an even more interesting game than poker. I encourage anyone who is attracted to poker and games in general to study this game. Easy to learn and you can spend a lifetimetrying to master it.

[Al Mirpuri]

Excellent post Bluffoon.

[raisins]

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Also in backgammon you have to make a lot of judgements with incomplete information, especially when handling the betting cube.

[/ QUOTE ]

Backgammon is a game of complete information, just like chess. There is nothing unknown. This is the biggest difference with poker. In poker the opponents cards are unknown. You know where your opponent in backgammon has his checkers. Computers have played at a more or less world class level in backgammon for years. Because all the relevant information is available optimal play was easier to quantify.

I suppose an argument could be made that just as we are unaware how an opponent in poker might choose to play a given hand likewise in backgammon we don't know how an opponent in backgammon will play or misplay his hand. There is a backgammon book from the 70's (Jacoby Crawford maybe?)that talks about very basic counter strategies for an opponent who tends to make errors with the doubling cube, e.g. double early an opponent who tends to drop, but this is all pretty obvious. As far as checker play goes, even if you suspect an opponent makes systematic errors in certain situations it is doubtful that there is enough equity to be gained there to switch from the optimal play as he has to get a roll that allows him to make the error. So the only unknown in backgammon, how your opponent will play his roles, is largely irrelevant. This unknown factor, how an opponent will play a given situation, is critical in poker.

Notice that the rolls of the dice are not unknown, you know your opponent will roll 1-1 exactly 1/36th of the time. Just like in poker you know card X is coming on the turn 1/47th of the time.

What you don't know in poker is the distribution of hands that your opponent could hold considering the plays he has made. The more accurately you do this the more you make. I don't know any games that resemble poker in this although there probably are some.

Regards

[Bluffoon]

In backgammon positions quickly become so complicated that you can not accurately calculate your equity without a computer.

So you are correct your information is complete but there is no way to calculate a correct answer at the board and you have to rely on judgement and experience to determine the best move or cube action.

This is the skill I was referring to which I felt transferred well to poker.

[magiluke]

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I'd also recommend a phenomenal board game from Rio Grande Games called "Puerto Rico."

[/ QUOTE ]

I've wanted to try out that game... Other games that are phenomenal are the 5 games of The Gipf Project (http://www.gipf.com). I'm especially a big fan of the game Zertz (it won an award from Mensa, if that gives you any idea as to how cerebral it is). Check them out, I need more people to play!

[bobbyi]

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Other games that are phenomenal are the 5 games of The Gipf Project (http://www.gipf.com). I'm especially a big fan of the game Zertz (it won an award from Mensa, if that gives you any idea as to how cerebral it is).

[/ QUOTE ]
I also think Zertz is an excellent game. No chance you live in or near Seattle? If you do, pm me and maybe we can try to organize some sort of monthly game night.

My general observation has been that there is a lot of overlap between serious poker players (by which I mean those who study the game and try to win at it) and those who have a serious interest in other games. In particular, I have known a lot of good poker players who had been very dedicated to chess as children and had played a lot of tournaments, and I have been amazed at how much overlap there is between bridge players and poker players. Just last night, I was playing at the casino and two people at my table were discussing bridge software.

[BarronVangorToth]

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it won an award from Mensa

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Hopefully the Mensa people won't beat me to death with stacks of IQ tests, but they also gave some type of award to the game "Fluxx," which, while incredibly fun and an entertaining game, isn't a game that I would say does anything OTHER than entertain as it provides no tactical or strategic decisions throughout.

Puerto Rico does -- in my years in the gaming industry as a hobby shop owner and now game designer, it is almost without rival and might very well be the greatest board game ever created. It is simply amazing. IF you play that like 100 times and want some variety, the same company also publishes "Amun Re" and "Princes of Florence" which are likewise quite good.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[BarronVangorToth]

OH, to follow-up, Zertz IS a terrific game. Games of that ilk are a sort of inspiration for one of my newest games (which is still being playtested -- and it's easy enough to mock up with basic elements one has in their homes) se7enquest:

http://www.barronvangortoth.com/?doc=se7enquest

I'm almost happy with it but it falls into the whole line like Zertz where the elements are basic but the strategy and tactical involvement are where it's at.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[shadow29]

Ugh. Fluxx is terrible.