Damn, I played some craptastic HE last night

[wuwei]

SB seemed pretty loose passive. My read was not that strong.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Hero...

[MercTec]

Call...assuming you're behind...with your two backdoor draws, seeing the turn for one small bet is better than seeing the turn and river for 2.

[27offsooot]

call. You are either way ahead or way behind here and you have a couple of backdoor draws.

[sean c]

Fold or raise your back door outs arent clean or that good either your ahead or behind and I wanna find out now. I think a call is weak.

[MercTec]

A loose passive player is probably not gonna reraise here if he has a K.

Turn card is very important. You want to see it...for cheap.

[sean c]

What turn card are you looking for that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy? Another queen, an ace, a jack, a third club? I don't see it. In a loose passive game your opponent may not re-raise the flop but he will damn well lead the turn.

[MercTec]

T /images/graemlins/club.gif certainly wouldnt suck. If a 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif falls on the turn and the player leads...then you can lay it down.

I would rather fold the flop then raise...I still think calling is best. If you raise, do you think loose-passive folds? A typical loose passive player will check to you on the turn. I don't think he's betting out after a raise. So I think you gain very little information from raising. Its just going to pump the pot with a couple of weak draws.
Any club or T would be a good card IMO.

[sean c]

I still think even the biggest of passives lead the turn a after bet calling your raise on the flop if they have a king. If you call on the flop a brick hits the turn you almost have to fold. a flop raise may even get you to the river for free.

[chief444]

I call. I can see an argument for folding too. I see no point at all in raising.

I probably wouldn't play this one to start with. But whatever.

[ThisHo]

Yep, if a brick hits you have to fold when he leads out. That is EXACTLY why you want to see the turn CHEAP! Your analysis seems to assume villain has a K. fine, lets run with that. If you raise he can 3-bet the flop with his K (loose/passives still get good cards and will still pump the pot when they have monsters - they just don't tend to be pairs as much). If villain 3-bets, then what? Fold? Call? Neither is a good option.
Let's say villains got the K but he doesn't want to scare off customers so you raise and he calls. The turn is a brck and he leads out. yes, you have to fold.

Now, you're saying raise MAY get you the river for free. SO WHAT if the the turn is a brick. Even if you catch a Q on the the river it may not be good here, but you're going to have to call a bet to find out... so by raising you've cost yourself 1.5 extra BB to lose to the K. calling = .5BB to see that the turn is a brick and you can safely fold to a bet. Then its on to the next hand.

ThisHo

[sean c]

I am not assuming the villian has kings. But if you call his flop bet he damn sure knows you don't have them and he is going to bet on the turn regardless of what he has so if the only way your going to show this hand down is runner runner clubs why bother calling the flop bet that is why I said raise or fold. BTW if you think your hand is a drawing hand you only have 3 not very clean outs on the flop 14.6 to 1 the pot is laying you 7 to 1 fold! If your not convinced he has a king and you might have the best hand what is your play. I raise the flop fold to a three bet or if he leads out on the turn remember you have position and guess what we are leaving out one other player completely why because he called the flop bet no one gives him credit for the king.

[chief444]

sean,

This is not a raise or fold situation necessarily. I don't mind folding the flop but I think your hand is good here a fair amount of the time. And if it is good your opponent (assuming he has another Q) is probably drawing to 4 outs to for a split.

And I would just call the flop with a K. You win more by waiting to raise.

Chief

edit...actually it would be 8 outs to a split but I still like calling the flop. I'd probably raise the turn and fold to a 3 bet unless I picked up a good draw to improve. But as I said I really don't mind just folding the flop either.

[sean c]

So chief your line is call the flop. Raise the turn and fold to a three bet. I am reading the other posts as call the flop bet. Fold the turn unimproved which I think is the worst possible way to play this hand. Do you agree or disagree?

[chief444]

Yes, I agree that if you're calling the flop bet it has to be because you feel there is a reasonable chance you hold the best hand on top of the backdoor draws. If you're not thinking about taking this to showdown or raising the turn/folding to a 3-bet as I said then folding the flop is definitely better.

[sean c]

Thats all I'm trying to say if you put SB on a king fold. I still would raise the flop instead of the turn but thats just me. I also don't fear a check raise from a LP unless he does indead have a king.