Would you fold this hand on the bubble?

[Scuba Chuck]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t563)
Hero (t3335)
UTG (t2060)
Button (t2042)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t400) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t363 (All-In)</font>, Hero ... FOLD or CALL?

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

Highly unlikely.

[silversurfer]

How could you fold that? I don't care if he shows A10 off or quads, that's a no-brainer.

[ColdestCall]

[ QUOTE ]
.... that's a no-brainer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only if you are not interested in getting better at SNG play. Otherwise, it's worth thinking about.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
.... that's a no-brainer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only if you are not interested in getting better at SNG play. Otherwise, it's worth thinking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, this may be the least insightful post ever. And that's coming some of my posts, which are real "winners" in the no content department. Perhaps, oh, I dunno, one sentence of content, would be a good start?

So let's look at the hand?

Villain starts with ~550. Hero starts with ~3350, other guys start with some 20xx number.

Preflop pot= 400.
Flop: T 2 2, and the villain bets out 350, all in. You're getting better than 2 to 1 on your call, and you have top pair. Let's combine this with a couple things, and see why I think this should be one of the easiest calls ever.

1) Hero won't even lose his chip lead if he loses this hand.
2) In fact, hero won't come close to losing his chip lead.
3) Villain will still be short stacked, at ~5.5BB after winning this hand.
4) Oh, and, you're getting &gt; 2 to 1 on calling a short stack with top pair, in a situation where losing the hand if you lose hurts you in absolutely no way at all.

So you call.

citanul

[ColdestCall]

Sorry for the lack of content - was just sitting down to lunch and only had a second to fire off a couple of sentences that I figured had a chance to be thought provoking.

But, seeing as how I snagged the title of "least insightful post ever," now I'm going to follow it up with another one:

Any chance you're missing an aspect of this hand that may be worth considering?

[lorinda]

Any chance you're missing an aspect of this hand that may be worth considering?

100%, there is a huge discussion here, but not for the reason that OP intended.

Edit: I'll conclude that discussion by saying SB has too many chips, so I call.
That's the end of the discussion, I'll let you guys post the start and the middle /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Lori

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
How could you fold that? I don't care if he shows A10 off or quads, that's a no-brainer.

[/ QUOTE ]

He won't show either of those, but in a higher buyin the chance of Hero drawing to 2 outs is pretty high.

The question is whether you want to call anyway despite knowing that, or, for that matter, whether it would be a good idea to fold if the SB flashes 99.

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
Any chance you're missing an aspect of this hand that may be worth considering?

100%, there is a huge discussion here, but not for the reason that OP intended.

Edit: I'll conclude that discussion by saying SB has too many chips, so I call.
That's the end of the discussion, I'll let you guys post the start and the middle /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

Got it (I believe). Consider folding so that you can continue to bully the table on the bubble. However, if you fold, you're letting the SB back into the game and you hardly have a commanding chip lead. So the safest route is probably the best. Call and get the SB out of the game.

Also, the SB appears to be pulling the old stop-and-go on you. And doing a damn fine job of it, by the way (since you considered folding).

[lorinda]

Word for word, that post is what I was thinking.

I'm not even sure that it's correct, but even the words like 'consider' were what I had in mind.

There is almost always something worth thinking about, even in apparently trivial situations.

Edit: I apologise if this is indeed what Scuba was driving at.

Lori

[Apathy]

This is a tempting fold... but do not get too greedy, call this, the short stack has too many chips to give this pot away and expect the other stacks to fold everything except aces and kings, which is I assume why you would fold here.


Also many 20s players dont understand bubble play, In this situation as the big chip leader some guy will fold his stack of like 100 Ill push 5000 with 72o or some crap and get called by AJ or something, Im always shocked what people will call with in this situation at the 20s

[ColdestCall]

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: I'll conclude that discussion by saying SB has too many chips, so I call.
That's the end of the discussion, I'll let you guys post the start and the middle /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you think the sweet spot is here for Mr. Hanger Onner Guy's stack (post-hand) if he is still in the game? 2BB, 2.5BB. 3BB? Also, what if the blinds were going up to 150/300 prior to shorty posting again....

Also, what do you think is the correct ratio of your stack to medium stacks?

P.S. I think the sweet spot is around 3BB with a 3 to 2 or greater ratio of your stacks to medium stack, but could be persuaded otherwise.....

[lorinda]

I think I want 4k here, the sb to have 605 and the blinds to be 150-300 next hand.

Just off the top of my head (I'm rather tired)

Lori

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
Got it (I believe). Consider folding so that you can continue to bully the table on the bubble. However, if you fold, you're letting the SB back into the game and you hardly have a commanding chip lead. So the safest route is probably the best. Call and get the SB out of the game.

Also, the SB appears to be pulling the old stop-and-go on you. And doing a damn fine job of it, by the way (since you considered folding).

[/ QUOTE ]

How much different are these 2 situations really?

Hero 3100
player 2000
player 2000
player 800

and

Hero 2800
player 2000
player 2000
player 1100

?

I don't totally subscribe to the idea that with these blinds and either of these two stacks, you're going to be able to fully bully the table at your whim. Even with position on the short stack. I think that either of these counts, especially at the blinds level 100/200, aren't exactly optimal for this type of play, and that the situation of the villain having 5.5bb and him having 4bb doesn't change much, if this bullying aspect is relevant.

Adanthar's point about the likelihood of drawing poopy at the higher buyins is true, but I think that you probably should call anyway, since he could just be running said stop and go at you, not just dieing for action with a big hand.

citanul

[citanul]

yeah, that's about the numbers I'd be looking for too.

[lorinda]

Even with position on the short stack. I think that either of these counts, especially at the blinds level 100/200, aren't exactly optimal for this type of play,

Whilst I agree with you, I think Coldest's point was that this made a much better post /images/graemlins/blush.gif

Lori

[nokona13]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a tempting fold... but do not get too greedy, call this, the short stack has too many chips to give this pot away and expect the other stacks to fold everything except aces and kings, which is I assume why you would fold here.


Also many 20s players dont understand bubble play, In this situation as the big chip leader some guy will fold his stack of like 100 Ill push 5000 with 72o or some crap and get called by AJ or something, Im always shocked what people will call with in this situation at the 20s

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a little confused by the replies here. Are you saying that as the big stack, you don't want to call an ultra small stack push when you have a medium hand? Are the "sweet spot" comments downstream here talking about how many chips the small stack would have to have before you call his pushes with a less than premium hand?

I geuss I just don't understand the correct play with a big stack against a small/tiny stack on the bubble. Since the small stack is pushing almost any two with only 2-3xBB left, if you're the BB or are already heads up like in this hand, aren't you getting great odds with any medium hand pf or a TPWK hand like this one here post-flop? Or is the risk too great that you'll get sucked out on or the small stack luckily has a premium hand and thus your call lets the small stack back in the game?

[ColdestCall]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I want 4k here, the sb to have 605 and the blinds to be 150-300 next hand.

Just off the top of my head (I'm rather tired)

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that sounds better than what I was thinking - I'm prob erring on the side of aggression and greed here. Although I think short stack of 2.5 BB and my stack of 3500 would probably be too close for me to pass up.
It would also, of course, depend on the other players and the table and my table image and yada yada....

[rickofcampbell]

Easy call against most players:
Most players would check a duece.
A lot of players would check a ten hoping the big blind/big stack would bet trying to pick up the pot.
Even if the SB has a ten, if his kicker is 9 or lower the pot will probably be split.

Some players (a minority) might only bet with a ten or better. Then folding is probably okay.

[Scuba Chuck]

100%, there is a huge discussion here, but not for the reason that OP intended.

Sorry Lorinda, but the discussion is exactly what I intended.

I know I have the best hand right now.

[ColdestCall]

[ QUOTE ]
How much different are these 2 situations really?

Hero 3100
player 2000
player 2000
player 800

and

Hero 2800
player 2000
player 2000
player 1100

?
citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

Not enough as it turns out, but now I feel like I have a better handle on where it would be enough...and if that type of play can change just a few of my seconds and thirds into firsts, then it was definitely worth the time I spent thinking about it....

"Adanthar's point about the likelihood of drawing poopy at the higher buyins is true, but I think that you probably should call anyway, since he could just be running said stop and go at you, not just dieing for action with a big hand."

Agreed. You will win enough times to make it worth your while to call, especially since, as you already pointed out, it doesn't hurt you too much to call and lose.

[lorinda]

Sorry Lorinda, but the discussion is exactly what I intended.

I'm the one that should be sorry, not you /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Sorry.

Lori

[ColdestCall]

[ QUOTE ]
100%, there is a huge discussion here, but not for the reason that OP intended.

Sorry Lorinda, but the discussion is exactly what I intended.

I know I have the best hand right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you "KNOW" you have the best hand right now may be a tad strong, but it doesn't matter because whether or not to call based on your hand strength was so obvious that it wasnt worth discussing in the first place....more importantly

Thanks for the post - you really made me think about an aspect of my game that needed thinking about!

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is a tempting fold... but do not get too greedy, call this, the short stack has too many chips to give this pot away and expect the other stacks to fold everything except aces and kings, which is I assume why you would fold here.


Also many 20s players dont understand bubble play, In this situation as the big chip leader some guy will fold his stack of like 100 Ill push 5000 with 72o or some crap and get called by AJ or something, Im always shocked what people will call with in this situation at the 20s

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a little confused by the replies here. Are you saying that as the big stack, you don't want to call an ultra small stack push when you have a medium hand? Are the "sweet spot" comments downstream here talking about how many chips the small stack would have to have before you call his pushes with a less than premium hand?

I geuss I just don't understand the correct play with a big stack against a small/tiny stack on the bubble. Since the small stack is pushing almost any two with only 2-3xBB left, if you're the BB or are already heads up like in this hand, aren't you getting great odds with any medium hand pf or a TPWK hand like this one here post-flop? Or is the risk too great that you'll get sucked out on or the small stack luckily has a premium hand and thus your call lets the small stack back in the game?

[/ QUOTE ]

What we are saying is that sometimes as the big stack it pays to let a tiny stack live so you can steal from the medium stacks to increase your chip lead, I win a lot of tournies like this, but...

for this particular hand i say call because of the chip counts and the small stacks position relative to us.

[david050173]

[ QUOTE ]

Also many 20s players dont understand bubble play, In this situation as the big chip leader some guy will fold his stack of like 100 Ill push 5000 with 72o or some crap and get called by AJ or something, Im always shocked what people will call with in this situation at the 20s

[/ QUOTE ]

I am equally shocked by what crap people push with /images/graemlins/grin.gif I would expect AJ to dominate as much it is dominated. Of course you have to be able to distinguish between the tight players and the aggressive pushers to make calls like that.

[Scuba Chuck]

I am very much enjoying this thread, and thanks for all the good insight.

Beginning of hand: Blinds 100/200
Hero 3335
Mid1 2060
Mid2 2042
Small 563

After hand
Hero 3135
Mid1 2060
Mid2 2042
Small 763

Edit: I'll conclude that discussion by saying SB has too many chips, so I call.

I think I want 4k here, the sb to have 605 and the blinds to be 150-300 next hand.

I just want to get my thoughts clear on this. Does the 4k chip stack matter more here because you really want 2x the next closest stacksize? Is this the most important fact, more than Hanger onner guys stack? Second of all, I would think the lower blinds are actually part of the advantage. It allows Hanger onner guy to Hanger onner a little bit longer.

[Scuba Chuck]

Well, you "KNOW" you have the best hand right now may be a tad strong

Coldcall, you got me. In all humility, it would have been better stated...

"I'm confident I have the best hand right now."

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
I am very much enjoying this thread, and thanks for all the good insight.

Beginning of hand: Blinds 100/200
Hero 3335
Mid1 2060
Mid2 2042
Small 563

After hand
Hero 3135
Mid1 2060
Mid2 2042
Small 763

Edit: I'll conclude that discussion by saying SB has too many chips, so I call.

I think I want 4k here, the sb to have 605 and the blinds to be 150-300 next hand.

I just want to get my thoughts clear on this. Does the 4k chip stack matter more here because you really want 2x the next closest stacksize? Is this the most important fact, more than Hanger onner guys stack? Second of all, I would think the lower blinds are actually part of the advantage. It allows Hanger onner guy to Hanger onner a little bit longer.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you lose a hand to 2nd or 3rd you are now shorty, or right with shorty. The ability to be tied for 2nd/3rd even when you lose really would help your case for folding here.