PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTION DAVID GZESH

I posted a question to you David Gzesh which is now becoming burried further down in this forum. I know you must have reviewed my posting as you responded to a different question posed further down in my string, but couldn't be bothered to address mine? Someone commented that mine did not offer the marketing opportunity for True Poker that the one you did address offered. That does appear to be a possibility. I really would like an answer, or maybe TP does not have any sound reasoning regarding my issue. Either way, after being somewhat impressed with your dedication to monitoring and responding to this site, I am now rather disappointed with you.

Hello


I happen to agree that the default setting should be your hand is not shown, unless you take action to show it, when no one calls a bet at the river.


With Party's recent upgrade, they have a "Muck losing hands/Uncalled hands" check box.


This is a good example of contrast in business models. Both sites are well-run successful internet poker sites, but they approach things differently.


Their use of this forum, and RGP, benefits them reaching a segment of their player base. It only reaches part of their player base though, it misses the Friday night poker/it's just like a video game crowd, by the way, where is their forum?


TruePoker has always tried to cater to this action/newbie group. Posters here have pointed out, for over a year, things to speed up the play and make it more compatible with playing two games. TruePoker has stated that they intend to keep to their model of a more life-like game. They do seem to have good games too.


Party has worked on their software and customer service. Each ungrade has made the software faster. For us, that play alot, this has value. They seem to get more cross-over from Paradise, players that don't fair well there, but like fast software.


As for you calling David on the carpet twice for not answering your post, why don't you write him an e-mail instead of demanding a reason for him not answering, he seems like a helpful guy and your post was not about what doctor to use for brain surgery, but a minor software chage.


MS Sunshine

If I knew where to email him or that it was even an option, I probably would have done so in the first place. I did not require the openess of this forum but knew of no other avenue to get an answer to one of my BIGGEST online poker room pet peeves.


As I stated, it was my very first post and I had clearly seen that Mr. Gzesh monitors this forum with dedication. I was just hoping to finally have an answer, from the horses mouth, as to what their thoughts were when they set the progam this way.


I still haven't given up hope that he will respond.

Deasr Poker Newbee:


I did not intend any slight by not answering your question right away. I thought it raised a myriad of issues and required more reflection than the other question I did answer on the spot.


Briefly, you stated that Truepoker "violates one of the fundamentals of poker" because it gives a player an choice whether to show an uncalled winning hand. More apecifically, Truepoker requires a player to actually be present at the table at the end of the hand to make that choice.


What "fundamental rule" of poker do you have in mind ?


Your illustration contrasts two situations:

(a) What happens when you are playing in a Brick & Mortar room, and

(b) What happens when you play online and leave a table before acting to muck your hand.


(a) Brick & Mortar: You state you act to release your cards face down after the dealer pushes you the pot. (Please note, you do not first get up from the table to play at another table in this description). Sitting at the table, you affirmatively act to muck your hand, the action continues with the next hand. (You do not sit and make the rest of the table wait for however long before you decide whether to show your hand or muck it.)

That is a fair description of real life poker: after the hand has been decided and you have been pushed the pot, you decide whether to show your uncalled winning hand or muck it. I would submit that is what the Truepoker options allow you to do on our site. Yes, you have to be at the table on Truepoker to decide whether to show or muck your hand.


(b) "If I am playing at another house at the same time ...."


I am not sure what "fundamental of poker" you refer to that says your ability to play in two games at once must be maximized for your convenience. (As noted by players posting in the original thread, playing two games does tend to slow down each game, to the detriment of all the other players. We are not entirely certain that your making others wait is a fair sharing of burdens.)


On the other hand, also, is the "fundamental rule" of B&M poker which requires a player to be at the table to take any action. If you had stayed at the Truepoker table after betting, you could have immediately picked the option to muck your uncalled hand when the last person folded. That doesn't seem like much effort, since you already waited to see everyone else fold. It is not more trouble than physically mucking your cards in a B&M room.


(This affirmative, hand specific requirement mirrors Truepoker's other feature which requires you to pick up your cards to see them, adding a potential tell if you have to do so.)


I thought this was an interesting post and Truepoker will still consider its merits further. I did not want to shoot from the hip last night and an adjustment to our software will be discussed internally with people much more knowledgable about poker than me.


(The other question I did answer right away had asked for a simple explanation of the meaning of the


"GUARANTEE" in the Truepoker's $35,000 HOLD-EM TOURNEY THIS SUNDAY AT 7:00 pm CDT.


Okay, I couldn't resist this "marketing opportunity.")

Good advertising for PARTY!


MS Sunshine never leaves any opportunity :-)

Dear David:


In the software world ( I don't care if it is poker or anything else) normally you will default to the safest of two options (i.e if you close a file without saving , it will ask "do you want to save it"). Translating this to poker, IMHO means most poker players DO NOT like to have their hand exposed and therefore the "safest option" is to muck it. In making decisions like this, you also may want look at your competition and try to find out "is this the right approach based on what the customers want to see", I will argue that you are in the small minority and trying to take a stand on this is a mistake.

Since having this option does not provide an unfair advantage to any one player, I don't see a real justification for not changing it. If you don't like your customers playing multiple games just say so but do not hide it under the umbrella of comparing online to B&M games. One example of a convenient button for online players that does not exist in live games is the "call any bets". At the tables you have to wait for the action to get to you before you act. The software world allows this decision to be made way in advance without divulging any information to the other players (except the speed of your call). Some people like this because it makes the games faster (again the safestst default here is to have this feature unchecked). Please reconsider your decision it is not too hard to admit you were wrong.


Thank you for at least agreed to reconsider this option


my 2 c


Jaque

Dear JAque:


Poker Newbie's original post framed the issue there as a "Fundamental" rule of poker being at stake. He related his own Brick & Mortar experience as illustrative. My response addressed his views, hopefully showing that Truepoker offered him the same decision options as his brick & mortar model, at the same point in every hand.


The element missing from his complaint had been that he exercised that option in a brick & mortar game while sitting at the table. The element of a "Fundamental" rule of poker was distinctly lacking.


The real poker issue involved a less dramatic concern over whether a player who chooses to leave a table after playing a given hand, before the pot is pushed, should be afforded a default setting on whether to automatically muck uncalled hands. It remains a close question to us at Truepoker whether that type of default setting fits with our general goal of offering an entertaining, enjoyable Real Poker Experience via the internet.


(At present, a Truepoker player always gets an option whether or not to show or muck an uncalled hand. PokerNewbie's issue arises only if the player has left the table to do something else. The payment of the pot and all money issues reamin unaffected by all of this.)


I apreciate your willingness to offer a perspective from "the software world" and the marketing world. This approach is quite distinct from the point Poker Newbie was making.


Briefly, the software world "safest option" argument you advance seems somewhat generic, here the specific issue is site design to enhance the real poker experience. People play poker for all sorts of reasons, including social interaction well beyond making money as efficiently as possible. We try and run Truepoker to meet a wide range of reasons why people enjoy a real poker experience.


You advise that Truepoker should stop being a "small minority" ... "trying to take a stand". Please understand, just because we present some alternatives to the large majority (read Paradise) does not mean we are wrong to do so. I would expect a number of other, successful sites seek to distinguish themselves from the "majority" rather than clone themselves. Nor does this mean we are right, we always consider customer feedback and responses. (By way of illustration, we have added "wait for blind" and advance action buttons we were lacking. On the other hand, we originally offered holdem hi-lo, but no one ever played so we dropped it.)


Your criticism that Truepoker "hides under the umbrella" of comparing online features to brick and mortar games wholly misses our point. We actually do this and pay attention to that relationship. This is not lipservice or posturing, it is a guideline. (One way to prompt a change at Truepoker is to point out how we mis-designed or neglected a real life poker tenet. Anyone is welcome to do so by emailing to management@truepoker.com.)


Truepoker is open to online features which improve upon play, within the context of providing an enjoyable poker experience. Advance action buttons, such as "call any bets", do not interfere with a commonly enjoyable experience, free players to engage in social activity appropriate to a poker table and do speed up the game. Again, the standard is not "can the software do it", but rather, does it contribute to the overall poker experience ?


You may not see any justification for our design or why it may have a beneficial effect on the games, you dismiss a number of concerns arising from multi-table play delay as an all-or-nothing choice. As I wrote earlier, the matter will be reviewed, but it is not a right/wrong issue or a "fundamental" rule. It is one of balancing design features.


Thanks for giving us and 2+2 your views.


David Gzesh

David, I really am not a poker newbee at all since I have been playing TP for the better part of 2 years, secondly, I am a she and not a he. Putting all that aside, I opted for a very bad example to illustrate the fundamental that I believe TP violates, the fundamental that allows me to keep my cards concealed unless someone has paid for the right to see them. Under no condition, does the house allow those cards to be flipped up by anyone, let alone do it themselves. Nowhere does it say that if I do not act fast enough, the dealer can show my cards to all. There are many ways to not act fast enough at TP. My example of playing 2 games was a poor one. I have legitimately gotten caught up in lags before that by the time it is my turn to act, my cards are already showing to all. This is not right. I have clicked a wrong button and gone to the table list or some other cybersomewhere and then had to quickly get back, or the dealer will show my cards. This is not right. By having the default muck without showing, no one sees the cards who hasn't paid for that right and showing my cards would be the exception, not the rule for most poker players. I think you have seen the necessary support for this to really review your programming. Thank you for the consideration.

Way to many words were wasted on this topic.


If one or two people are complaining about it, don't worry about changing it. Clients tend to like a change only when it solves a precieved problem. If most, except for a small minority of TP players do not see this as a problem, Then it would not be the best business decision to change it, as it may actually upset more clients than it makes happy.


If complaints are coming in droves, then the correct business decision would be to change it.


Stu

I agree with Ms. Newbee and Jaque. I am a floorman in a casino and if a player was say, paying a server for a drink after having made a bet. Nobody calls his bet and he wins by default. The dealer would pass him the pot and then, if his hands were still occupied, the dealer would take his cards and place them, FACEDOWN, into the muck. I think it is irresponsible for the "HOUSE" whether online or B&M to involve itself in the game. Arbitrarily exposing a players hand is exactly that.


Larry