Another big pair out of position short handed

[gomberg]

I think big pairs out of position (in the blinds) are a problem for me. My results lately with QQ and KK out of the blinds have been abysmal. My results lately have still been very good, as I'm not losing huge pots, but I feel like I'm getting pushed off them too easily and missing out on some edge. How do you play this situation.

4-handed 5-10 game. UTG has been playing tight and not raising too often. He raises the pot this hand w/ 150 BB and I have about the same. Folded to me in BB w/ QQ. I call.

One thing I've noticed about UTG is that he'll bet the pot no matter what after a raise if he's checked to on the flop and turn.

Flop comes like 9 high, I check, he bets pot, I call. I don't know about this line. I was planning on doing a stop and go on the turn but think I should have just check-raised to not let him draw to overs if that's what he had. Anyway, the turn is a K, I check, he bets pot again, I fold...

Help appreciated...

[mcb]

If the player auto-bets the flop afer a preflop raise then you really need to reraise the flop. In this case I think you really need to lead out on the flop and call a raise - slow down on the turn. The only way to stop this kind of player is to play back at them.

[start_to_finish]

[ QUOTE ]
I think big pairs out of position (in the blinds) are a problem for me. My results lately with QQ and KK out of the blinds have been abysmal. My results lately have still been very good, as I'm not losing huge pots, but I feel like I'm getting pushed off them too easily and missing out on some edge. How do you play this situation.

4-handed 5-10 game. UTG has been playing tight and not raising too often. He raises the pot this hand w/ 150 BB and I have about the same. Folded to me in BB w/ QQ. I call.

One thing I've noticed about UTG is that he'll bet the pot no matter what after a raise if he's checked to on the flop and turn.

Flop comes like 9 high, I check, he bets pot, I call. I don't know about this line. I was planning on doing a stop and go on the turn but think I should have just check-raised to not let him draw to overs if that's what he had. Anyway, the turn is a K, I check, he bets pot again, I fold...

Help appreciated...

[/ QUOTE ]

Few options
1. Reraise Preflop
2. Ck Raise the flop
3. Lead on the flop
4. Lead the turn
5. Check Call the turn.

The King may not have really been a good turn card for your opponent, but it may have given him a potential card to bluff with. Depending on your read of the opponent, I might call the turn, lead the turn, or even check raise. Do you think if he bet the flop with nothing, but the King hits on the turn that he may be hoping to rep AKing? Seems possible.

By smooth calling preflop with the QQ shorthanded, you can run into all sorts of hands by the raiser. He may be raising with a small PP, suited connector, a real hand, etc.

[Usagi_yo]

Out of Position sucks in NL. I'm apostate, I don't feel compelled to play QQ from the BB or SB and I can let the hand go simply because I don't like my position against a big stacked player. Against an UTG good player you're simply not going to know where you are at without putting in a re-raise, then a bet on the flop.

If you were to close your eyes and throw away every BB and SB hand you have (to a raise), I don't think you'll be giving that much up to the game.

[LuvDemNutz]

I like the reraise PF and lead the flop line.

4-handed you can't get blown off QQ this easily IMHO.

[gomberg]

I agree this is a problem, but this player was playing WAY too tight for a 4-handed game, so that's why I had my breaks on. The other thing that popped into my mind is that if I CR the flop, all of a sudden the pot is getting uncomfortably large and he may be calling with an underpair to mine (like JJ, for instance) - and will blow me off the hand later... in addition, it's very possible he has AA,KK or AK.

I think the best line here would have been to CR the flop and lead the turn, then fold to any more action as he would almost certainly have a better hand than me calling there. But I'm not so sure on this line being best... any more suggestions?

edit: another way to play this was to lead out on the K turn- any merit to this?

[AZK]

I think reraising (preflop) identifies your hand too easily unless he's been playing so aggro that everyone is reraising him with a wide range of hands. I'm a fan of the flop check-raise (pot sized), this will slow him down and get me to showdown which is what I want. Don't get greedy like me and try to get more money on the turn otherwise cards like the K hit and you want to cry.

Lately, I too have had a lot of trouble playing overpairs out of position especially when the flop comes XXY and X is T or higher. In general with overpairs, I've decided that my goal in these hands is to get to showdown as cheap as possible so I will act accordingly to how I think my opponents play to get there, I no longer care about making that much money after the flop with them when I'm out of position...but maybe I've just had a bad week and I'm doing it all wrong.

[Usagi_yo]

Let me honestly ask you. Did you ever consider folding pre-flop?

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]
Let me honestly ask you. Did you ever consider folding pre-flop?

[/ QUOTE ]


If you have to consider this, get out of this game.

[Usagi_yo]

I dont' think so. I think rather the opposite, if you feel compelled to play a hand just because it seemingly has value, despite pegging your opponant as a TAG and being an UTG raiser, which just about puts him on AA, AK, KK against your QQ -- then why play on such a thin margin -- particulary out of position in one of the blinds?

[Ghazban]

The game is 4-handed. At a full table, you might have an argument for folding preflop (though I still think that's fairly weak) but I don't believe you can narrow down the raiser's hand to AA/KK/AK in this situation.

[Huskiez]

[ QUOTE ]
pegging your opponant as a TAG and being an UTG raiser, which just about puts him on AA, AK, KK against your QQ

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10 handed, this might be a tight UTG raiser's standards.

4 handed, definitely not. And if somehow they were, you have the implied odds to play for a set and double up.

[Usagi_yo]

Okay, I forgot it was 4 handed.

[Acesover8s]

[ QUOTE ]

Okay, I forgot it was 4 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what if its ten handed, its still an easy call even if you're playing only for set value.

[gomberg]

No - I have to call for set implied odds no matter what... But this guy seriously had not been raising at all. Early in the session, he was, but then he stopped playing hands for a long time, so I thought it very likely he had a high pocket or ace in this spot.

Lately I don't even get excited anymore about these type of spots. It seems I'm making most of my money in position anyways and when I hit big hands. Maybe that's a problem where I'm not capitalizing on marginal situations like I should be. I'm still averaging above 10 big bets / 100 in the short-handed game, but feel i'm leaking some in these situations.