HU on the flop slow played set?

[surfdoc]

Here is a hand I had some discussion with another 2+2er. Thought I would put it up and get some other opinions. Flame away.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.66 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.33 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7.33 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

Final Pot: 11.33 BB

[bernie]

Raise the turn. He may still be drawing.

b

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the turn. He may still be drawing.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but how often given his calling a raise preflop and his flop CR with the Ace of trump on the board?

Here is his note just to be complete. Forgot in the original post.

{{DESC: LA-A TOT HANDS: 957 VP$IP: 29 - PFR: 9 - BB/100: 10 FSB: 67 - FBB: 65 - ASB: 35 WR/100: $250 - CR: 3 - CCPF: 1 WSD: 39 - W$SD: 57 AF-TOT: 1.7 - AF-F: 1.2 - AF-T: 2.1 - AF-R: 3.0 FRB: 49 - FBB-HU: 50}}&gt;

[bunky9590]

Call the flop checkraise, raise the turn. I'm not waiting til the river with 2 spades on board.

[stoxtrader]

[ QUOTE ]
Call the flop checkraise, raise the turn. I'm not waiting til the river with 2 spades on board.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. plus you may get to cap the turn, and while a small part of the time that happens you are behind, its mostly value.

[bernie]

If he has 2 pair, he could easily 3 bet you on this turn. Think of all the hands you could be representing to him too.

b

[surfdoc]

You don't think his flop checkraise screams weak ace and he may fold out on the turn to a raise?

[stoxtrader]

that is possible. but most likely you get the same # of bets if that is his holding with both lines, while gaining greater upside from a frisky turn play by the villain.

[bunky9590]

Clearly he has a hand he's trying to protect. I still raise the turn, he could put you on a semibluff mind you. I would slow down on the flop with having position on him, he has to bet into you after the checkraise on the flop, make him pay for that play. If he has two pair instead of the weak ace wont he three bet? Im not letting him get to the river cheap when the scare card could kill my action.

[felson]

Also, if he has a weak ace and the river falls a spade, he may check-call, costing you a raise.

[surfdoc]

I realized that a turn raise is the better play as soon as I played the hand but I thought there might be a few "let him keep betting" arguments out there. The shorhanded pot makes the flush draw much less likely so I wasn't as concerned about raising while he still may be drawing. Do you guys play it differently if it is a rainbow flop?

bunky:
[ QUOTE ]
If he has two pair instead of the weak ace wont he three bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think he would checkraise the flop and shut out utg if he flopped 2 pair?

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, if he has a weak ace and the river falls a spade, he may check-call, costing you a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is actually the best reason for raising the turn. Good point.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you guys play it differently if it is a rainbow flop?


[/ QUOTE ]

This would be a factor in not raising the turn for me. The more draws possible, the more I can represent something else even when raising the turn.

b

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think he would checkraise the flop and shut out utg if he flopped 2 pair?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't. I'd lead right into you an walk right into the jaws of death, but I've seen people do some dumb things like that when the board contains draws. most people wont fold an AJ AQ or AK if checkraised there.

[Nate tha' Great]

Surf,

I do a fair amount of waiting until the river like you did here. The main downside to the turn raise is that it tends to flag you for having a big hand, so you will get some folds. And I think people are overestimating the number of times that he'll check it to you on the river.

On the other hand, I'll also do a lot of fastplaying on the flop. Aggressive play on the flop gets pretty little respect, and there are quite a number of times that he'll cap it and then bet into you again on the turn.

I'm not saying that you should never raise the turn in these spots, but raiseflop/raiseturn/raiseriver are all viable options and should be mixed and matched pretty liberally depending on your table image and the character of your opponent.

[surfdoc]

Thanks Nate. That was really what I was thinking. I agree that table image is an important factor. I was playing snug as usual (I am generally around VPIP 15/PFR 8) and felt a turn raise may result in him finding a fold when faced with the idea that he would have to call 2 more BB including the river. Instead, he was willing to throw one more in on the river to prevent me from bluffing him off his Ace.

Anyway, he had A3o and MHIG. (obviously)