My most difficult flop ever - Am I weak?

[Scuba Chuck]

Is it possible anyone here would have played this post flop differently? This is on Party Poker $22 table.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+2 (t740)
MP1 (t1775)
MP2 (t715)
Hero (t695)
CO (t455)
Button (t965)
SB (t975)
BB (t550)
UTG (t490)
UTG+1 (t640)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to t85</font>, Hero calls t85, CO calls t85, Button calls t85, SB calls t70, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (t455) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t150</font>, CO calls t150, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to t890 (All-In)</font>, MP2 folds, Hero folds, CO calls t220 (All-In).

Turn: (t1865) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: (t1865) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t1865

SB: A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
CO: Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif

Not one fXXXing spade

[Laughingboy]

You probably could have kicked the SB out with a nice-sized pre-flop reraise. (But if he's willing to push with that hand after a bet and call, who knows?)

I've often found myself getting nailed when I got greedy and slow-played a big PF hand, or bet too little on the flop looking for customers. I say reraise your aces. If everyone folds, so be it.

[microbet]

I think unless SB is a known maniac, it is a fold. Now, SB is a known maniac.

Too bad he didn't hit the 4th ace. Villians need to be rewarded for those plays sometimes, and you would have had a chance to get your chips back from him.

[eastbay]

Quick note: A move-in here is more likely to mean someone thinks they have the best hand (like an overpair) but doesn't want to get drawn out on by the flush, than it does a made flush. A made flush will be slowplayed much more often than pushed here.

eastbay

[Scuba Chuck]

I know I could have raised more PF. I'm sure I would have been better off, but what would you do post flop?

This happen 100 times, I think I always fold

[Scuba Chuck]

Eastbay, do you mean to say that you'd call?

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
Eastbay, do you mean to say that you'd call?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I think I call by default there. Could go otherwise depending on opponent, but given no more information, yeah, I think it's a call.

eastbay

[Laughingboy]

I mostly agree with eastbay. Sometimes a push is a low flush here, but with a decent-sized PF raise that's less likely.

[microbet]

Yeah, but he's up against 2 players. CO called 150 on the flop and could easily have the nuts. The raise could be trips as well as overpair. One player could have 78 with 1 or 2 spades for a huge draw and be a favorite (if not made). Just about the best case would be someone at least had one spade and you were still not be a huge favorite. You had to pretty much expect a call from CO (the SB should have expected it, which makes his play especially bad).

[The Yugoslavian]

I'd interpret Eastbay as saying that the push means you are very likely ahead of the flop pusher (but by how much, I don't know).

Preflop: I think you really need to raise here to thin the field (reducing your risk someone hits the flop) and to ideally build a similarly big pot vs. just one opponent (the guy raised so he probably thinks he has something and will want to play).

Flop: Hmmm....I'm not sure I like this raise since you only have ~600 left. You're in a very tough spot b/c there are so many limpers so someone probably has a good draw and sometimes u'll be drawing almost dead. I probably check/fold this and still have a decentish stack. If you're going to bet 150 then get raised allin (rather than called) you're in a very tough spot. You have only ~400ish chips which sucks. I hate to see the other short stack guy call behind -- he very likely has a strong flush draw and/or the flush already (dunno why he called with an overpair). That being said, you almost have to call now as your pot odds are so high. There is a good chance you're up against two flush draws and/or a bigger pair/top pair type hand. It's probably +CEV and given that otherwise you're left to work with a modest 400 chip stack I'd reckon it likely could be +$EV too.

Additional questions:
What is your plan if called and a blank hits? What if you're called and a spade hits?

Yugoslav

PS See, not *all* of my posts are TSC-like with negative content.

[Scuba Chuck]

I judge my 150 bet to be a value bet (and with the benefit of hindsight, I was correct). The calls led me to believe opponenets were on a draw or slow playing the flush.

The turn a rag. Well, I got what I wanted, and I pissed it away. I didn't know what to do. As Strasser said, "when I get confused I just push." I probably shoulda followed that advice here. Easy to say though. Anyway, I check, raise to my left, and a reraise allin to my all the way left.

Reflecting back, I do see Eastbays points now.
$22 worth of lessons.

[nokona13]

It was mentioned by a couple posters above that a re-raise pf is the right play. I always do that with AA, KK unless I'm on one of the blinds and am pretty confident I'll get heads up with only a call. Is there an argument from someone out there that if you're confident of your post-flop skills (ie not me), you only call here and accept the risk of multi-way flop in exchange for the increased liklihood of action on a ragged flop?

[Apathy]

This is a tricky hand, I am usually in this situation when I am the pf raiser and get a million calls. In general I never throw away aces on the flop in SNG play unless the spades were like QJ10 or something... I would have expected SB to have a set here and I very well may have folded without a read as other posters have said, the SB almost certaintly does not have a flush though.

I would also be worried that the SB was pushing the bare A /images/graemlins/spade.gif as well.


See you at the tables Scuba.

Apathy

[stupidsucker]

I havent read all the posts.

I see that easybay recomends a call, and I understand his though process here. I on the other hand am going to make a fast judgment based on as many facts as I can.

My conclusion is "fold"

And this is why.... "IF" I ever got myself into this situation(hardly never) then I would fold simply because if I did lose It would hurt 10x as much because of the error I would have had to made preflop to get into this situation to begin with. This affects my mental attitude and may cause me to make more mistakes in the near future.

With the action on this flop chances are that one of your opponents has at least 1 Spade, and there is another good chance that they have the A /images/graemlins/spade.gif. You can argue me that the chances are the same every time for someone having the As, but the action involved gives me info. If someone does have that A /images/graemlins/spade.gif then there goes one of your outs if someone already has a set. I fear a set here much more then I fear a made flush. Id put pusher on the Ahigh draw and caller on a set.

Now... you can lose several ways. Made flush, drawn flush, 2 pair, set, straight.... you name it. I dislike the action, and AA is still just a pair. It hurts, but I let it go the large majority of the time.

The real point to be made is.... DONT do that preflop... Yes you already know this, but you did it anyways. People are very willing to play with you all in preflop with hands like QQ down to ATo.... why give them a free flop?

Had the flush come would you have even posted this? Probably not, because you would have felt that you made the right choice, and felt like a poker god for laying down aces avoiding a huge loss.


Edit: I noticed I spelled easybay's name wrong, but I think I like it.

[NegativeEV]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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Eastbay, do you mean to say that you'd call?


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Yeah I think I call by default there. Could go otherwise depending on opponent, but given no more information, yeah, I think it's a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

If its a call I think its close. Unless you are very comfortable with your SnG game I don't think your search for improvement should be related to identifying situations where you should make "close" all-in calls on level 2.

I'm not saying this is bad advice- I understand the reasoning and I know Eastbay is a better/more experienced SnG player than I am. However, as I become more and more comfortable and more and more successful with SnG play I continue to realize that during my early learning stages focusing on identifying times to make the right "all-in call" in "close" situations was not the right focus.

For a learning $11-$33 player, folding here and learning to make correct decisions later is better IMO. For a very experienced player who has SnG strategy down, this type of play is important. Before that, I think focusing on this type of play can be detrimental.

[nokona13]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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Eastbay, do you mean to say that you'd call?


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Yeah I think I call by default there. Could go otherwise depending on opponent, but given no more information, yeah, I think it's a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

If its a call I think its close. Unless you are very comfortable with your SnG game I don't think your search for improvement should be related to identifying situations where you should make "close" all-in calls on level 2.

I'm not saying this is bad advice- I understand the reasoning and I know Eastbay is a better/more experienced SnG player than I am. However, as I become more and more comfortable and more and more successful with SnG play I continue to realize that during my early learning stages focusing on identifying times to make the right "all-in call" in "close" situations was not the right focus.

For a learning $11-$33 player, folding here and learning to make correct decisions later is better IMO. For a very experienced player who has SnG strategy down, this type of play is important. Before that, I think focusing on this type of play can be detrimental.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what should us learning 11-33 players be focusing on? Pre-flop (ie raising this hand), bubble, steals, timing/size of continuation/semi-bluff bets?

[NegativeEV]

[ QUOTE ]
So what should us learning 11-33 players be focusing on? Pre-flop (ie raising this hand), bubble, steals, timing/size of continuation/semi-bluff bets?

[/ QUOTE ]

We're all learning, just at different stages. A player who is not yet *very* comfortable with SnG play could focus almost entirely on preflop and bubble play and not be far off base. There are a few good posts in the past week or so that talk about the advantage a good SnG player has on the bubble in $11-$33 SnG's. This advantage is key and is where focus should be in the early stages of learning.

[Pokerscott]

I agree with everyone saying the pre-flop raise is the play (I fold post flop with 5 people seeing the flop btw). However, everyone is saying the reason to preflop raise is to 'thin the herd'. I completely agree with that, but I find another key reason for the preflop raise is to create an enticing pot for someone to try and 'steal' with a push. A raise gives the original raiser another chance to act. So many people are afraid of playing poker after the flop that they will shove in all their chips pre-flop. With AA you want to give them every opportunity to do that!!!

Raising it up a little bit (say to T$150) gets rid of the weak hands, and gives all the bigger hands a very tasty pot to try and go for. My guess is a T$150 raise would have got you all-in pre flop with QQ and you would be sitting pretty.

Pokerscott

[nokona13]

Thanks for your replies NegativeEV. While I seem to have your attention, I thought I'd ask one more question. One situation which has been confusing me (so I've just been folding) has been bubble play on say level 4 or 5 where I'm mid stack but clearly &lt;10xBB, maybe even closer to 5-6xBB on level 5. What do you do say in the small blind where you get a pf limper with a hand you'd probably push, but is not excellent, like maybe KTs or A7s or something, if you got two folds to you? Would you still push? Am I being weak and I should basically assume a limper on this level is a fish hoping to see a cheap flop and push with almost anything, or at least down to 67o or something? I've been default assuming this is either a low pocket or Ax or a savvy player with a monster who thinks someone will push if he limps, so I've been checking or folding without a mid PP or &gt;AT...

[Scuba Chuck]

Nokona, you're asking the right questions. In Middle Play (loosely defined as that period from Level 4 to the bubble), when this occurs, I think it's entirely possible they have a "playable" limping hand, or a monster. It's entirely table read (or guess) whether you can mow them over or not. Is that player a "tricky" player? If so, I'd pass.

On the other hand, if it's the bubble, the answer is a different read entirely.

[NegativeEV]

[ QUOTE ]
One situation which has been confusing me (so I've just been folding) has been bubble play on say level 4 or 5 where I'm mid stack but clearly &lt;10xBB, maybe even closer to 5-6xBB on level 5. What do you do say in the small blind where you get a pf limper with a hand you'd probably push, but is not excellent, like maybe KTs or A7s or something, if you got two folds to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

First let's consider this situation WITHOUT the limper. When you are in the SB with 6xBB on the bubble and it's folded to you, you often don't need KTs or A7s or to even see your cards to push. What often matters is your stack size vs. the stack size in the BB vs. the relative stack sizes of the remaining players. Cards are sometimes secondary. Not your question, but this is important.

As for your question, I'm not dodging it, but it is too general to give an answer. You really need to evaluate these situations individually based on: 1.) the quality of your cards, 2.) your stack size and the relative stacks of those involved and those NOT involved in the hand, 3.) your read of the limper.

[partygirluk]

I don't think the reason to reraise preflop is to thin the field. You want to get more money in the pot when you have the best of it, and you don't want to give people implied odds to outflop you.

Also, your position sucks. Say you call, and more people call behind you.

UTG will lead out on many flops, and if someone with position on you has caught the flop, then you are going to get nastily trapped. I much prefer the smooth call on the button or cutoff, or if there are lots of LAGs behind you who might reraise, allowing you to get all in PF.

The flop is really close. Really close.

[nokona13]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One situation which has been confusing me (so I've just been folding) has been bubble play on say level 4 or 5 where I'm mid stack but clearly &lt;10xBB, maybe even closer to 5-6xBB on level 5. What do you do say in the small blind where you get a pf limper with a hand you'd probably push, but is not excellent, like maybe KTs or A7s or something, if you got two folds to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

First let's consider this situation WITHOUT the limper. When you are in the SB with 6xBB on the bubble and it's folded to you, you often don't need KTs or A7s or to even see your cards to push. What often matters is your stack size vs. the stack size in the BB vs. the relative stack sizes of the remaining players. Cards are sometimes secondary. Not your question, but this is important.

As for your question, I'm not dodging it, but it is too general to give an answer. You really need to evaluate these situations individually based on: 1.) the quality of your cards, 2.) your stack size and the relative stacks of those involved and those NOT involved in the hand, 3.) your read of the limper.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks again NEV and Suba. So let me refine the question. Say I'm mid-small stack (but not super short, say 6-9xBB). What should the size of the BB stack do to my inclination to steal with any two? If he's about even with me, is it auto-push without the limper? With no limper and BB has 2x my stack, but is not the big stack at the table, do I still push? Only with medium hand? If BB is big stack, &gt;3x my stack, am I inclined to fold anything but very strong hands (for this late), say &gt;=AT, &gt;=77, &gt;=QJs? Or is it the opposite, and I'm more inclined to steal against a big stack (assuming I have enough chips to hurt him if he calls and I win) because he'll be less inclined to risk it with marginal cards since he has the chip lead and doesn't need to catch up?

Getting to lots of questions here, but I'm assuming the answers for stack size of BB with no limper will broadly apply to the limper as well, taking into account my read of his tricky quotient...

[RoyalLance]

I have at least one thing I would have done different. First, I would have made a bigger raise with the pocket aces (about 4 or times the big blind at least). The A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif did a very deceptive play check-raising the all-in when the flop had possible spade flush. I would have to play this myself to figure out if call all in was neccesary.