A hand against a 2+2er.

[James282]

Semes like a huge portion of any "interesting" hands I play come against 2+2ers. This particular hand came against a 2+2 pro online player. We've played a decent amount of hands against one another, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't know it's "me." So basically he knows I'm not out of line.


I raise A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif UTG+2 and the button(2+2er cold calls). The BB comes along as well.

The flop is K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif That isn't exact, but it's pretty close. It was definitely 2 diamonds and king high. I bet, just the 2+2er calls.

My plan is to check-raise any turn card, except a diamond or an ace. Thoughts?
-James

[stoxtrader]

I really like it. You get very good bluffing equity here, and can fold all kind of hands that beat you. Only alternative would be to check/call the turn and c/r a busted river.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
I really like it. You get very good bluffing equity here, and can fold all kind of hands that beat you. Only alternative would be to check/call the turn and c/r a busted river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Will he value bet a little to middle pair on the river?
-James

[skp]

Fine as a variation. Particularly effective, if the turn is a king.

The conventional (and better) play is to simply follow up with another bet on the turn and see if the 2+2 'er will drop his medium pp which I assume is his most likely holding.

A third variation is betting with the intention of 3 betting if raised (to be used sparingly).

[Steve Giufre]

I pretty much agree with SKP here. I think its OK, but I would lean towards betting the turn. Obviously depends on his aggresion and how likely he is to bet say 66-1010 on the turn. I would think he might fold those hands a lot of the time if you just followed up with a bet, but he will definetely also fold them to a turn CR. The problem is a lot of solid players might check behind you here planning to call the river or bet when checked to.

On the other hand, when he does have a king, I dont think you are getting him off it it anyway. I think when he has a hand he is willing to get away from a simple turn bet will do the trick. I dont hate it though, and if he is the type to bet the turn check the river with 99, instead of check the turn and call a bet, then your line is best.

[James282]

See I just think that unless more paint hits, no one is folding tt or 66 there. Why would they? What has changed? On the other hand, checking behind a PP would be a disaster if I have AQ or AJ. On the other end, I think he has a bet and fold to a raise situation. At least that was what I was trying to face him with. Even if he has KQs, he is going to have a tough time calling 2 more bets if he knows that I am solid - though he probably would if he considers me a "pretty decent unknown."
-James

[Steve Giufre]

OK I dont want to do it but I think I have to admit you are right and I'm wrong. I didnt see that he considers you to be an unknown. But if he did you who you were, I think he would have to considering laying down 66 some of the time to a turn bet. I do agree it would be much better to bet a medium pocket pair on the turn than it would be to check it. That doesnt mean this guy is gonna put the bet in though.

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
I really like it. You get very good bluffing equity here, and can fold all kind of hands that beat you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct.

[ QUOTE ]
Only alternative would be to check/call the turn and c/r a busted river.

[/ QUOTE ]

That I wouldn't like. If the turn c/r whiffs, a river bet seems mandantory. the check call turn, c/r river seems a little bizzare to the point where it would probably get called.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
OK I dont want to do it but I think I have to admit you are right and I'm wrong. I didnt see that he considers you to be an unknown. But if he did you who you were, I think he would have to considering laying down 66 some of the time to a turn bet. I do agree it would be much better to bet a medium pocket pair on the turn than it would be to check it. That doesnt mean this guy is gonna put the bet in though.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's true he might not put the bet in, but the fact that I had the Jd makes it virtually impossible for him to have the diamond draw also(which he'd check behind). I suppose he would check a pair behind sometimes, but it'd be a grave mistake IMO. But yeah I guess since we're agreeing I'm done /images/graemlins/smile.gif Just wanted to add that last bit.
-James

[rory]

I like the check-raise on the turn play. You give him an opportunity to give you a free card, and if he declines, you give him an opportunity to let you try to blow him off the hand. You win no matter what he does on the turn.

[Saborion]

How would you have played a pair of 9's if you switched place with your opponent? Call the flop? If so, do you bet when checked to on the turn? Of course you do given what you've said in this thread. So do you fold to the turn c/r?

[skp]

I don't know that not betting say 99 here would be a grave mistake by your opponent.

The pot has 7 or so bets in it (I can't remember if the blinds called). Anyway, it's fairly small.

If you check the turn on this benign looking board after I just called the turn, I may well check behind.

That check becaomes an error only if:

1. You were planning to checkfold and go on to hit one of your 6 outs on the river. But this will only happen les than 1 in 7 times.

2. You were planning to checkcall twice (but this assumes that I would bet the river which I might not if another paint or an Ace hits).

On the other hand, my check is a good one:

1. If you had some hopeless hand that you would have folded with on the turn had I bet but my check now induces you to bluff the river

2. You were planning to just call the turn if I bet but fold on the river because now you will call a river bet (which I would make unless it was an ace or something). This scenario then is a wash compared to the 99 beting the turn scenario but it has the added advantage of not facing an unwelcome checkraise from you (which is not that unlikely a possibility once you check the turn on a benign looking board after I just called the flop).

There are other combos but overall, I think it's not a grave error to check.

Having said that, most guys would bet 99 if you check (I would do too though not always for the reasons given above). So, you would be able to checkraise and that's all that matters when you are deciding whether you should try for the checkraise.

[DeeJ]

I obviously don't know who is involved, but if he think's you're decent might he cold call KQs here? Or 88?

[James282]

Yes skp, but letting me hit my outs one in 7 times is far worse than letting me not draw to my outs at all. Also, who would bluff bet an ace high hand on the river? What hand would this player expect to get someone to fold? Also, from my perspective, I pretty much have to fold AQ or AJ no draw because it's almost painfully obviouos what my opponent has. If he has a draw he will usually check behind and if he has a pair he will bet.

To answer someone else's question: Yes, I would bet a pair there(but I wouldn't have cold-called any pair in t he first place). And I would fold to a check-raise from a tough player. There are like 2 combinations of hands that he could be semibluffing, a few he could be pure bluffing and like a lot more where he has me crushed.
-James

[roy_miami]

The problem is a lot of solid players might check behind you here planning to call the river or bet when checked to.

Why is that a problem? Hero gets a free river with the worst hand and gets to checkfold the river unimproved.

I like it anywhere but Party Poker. I find it hard to believe that anybody would fold anything of showdown value to a turn checkraise there as its a little overused as a turn semi-bluff weapon.

[BottlesOf]

Unless he 3-bets with a K /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[skp]

[ QUOTE ]
. Also, who would bluff bet an ace high hand on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. In the case of ace high, what I mean is that you would checkcall the river - not bluff bet. So, it's the same one bet that the 99 gains regardless of what he does on the turn. This assumes that you would call the turn if he bets but fold the river.

You say that you would fold AQ/AJ no draw on the turn if he bets. But if you would then call on the river if he checks, it may be better for 99 to check the turn and bet the river as the pot is small. I say "may" because it's too late in the night for me to do the math. The other problem with checking the turn is that 99 may not be able to bet the river if a paint hits and it still does not improve you.

Anyway, all this is academic. I am simply pointing out that checking 99 is not a grave mistake. But I am not certain of it.

[rory]

Yeah, then you are bumming!

[obi---one]

[ QUOTE ]
I really like it. You get very good bluffing equity here, and can fold all kind of hands that beat you. Only alternative would be to check/call the turn and c/r a busted river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check raising rivers online without the best hand is a serious waste of money

[obi---one]

[ QUOTE ]
OK I dont want to do it but I think I have to admit you are right and I'm wrong. I didnt see that he considers you to be an unknown. But if he did you who you were, I think he would have to considering laying down 66 some of the time to a turn bet. I do agree it would be much better to bet a medium pocket pair on the turn than it would be to check it. That doesnt mean this guy is gonna put the bet in though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thawts bullshit, thats its a serious mistake to not bet a pocket pair here. You can check and call all none very ugly rivers. That way you can not be bluffed out of the pot and you will get bluffed at a enough on the river to make it a solid and profitable play.

[Fibo]

Isn't betting anything on the turn better?. Why?. After all, he's terrified about AK.

[Luke]

See I just think that unless more paint hits, no one is folding tt or 66 there. Why would they? What has changed?

If you bet the turn, what has changed is that you fired another barrel and increased the likelihood that you have a big pocket pair, KQ, or AK in the eyes of the 2+2er.

This 2+2er knows you will auto-bet the flop and sometimes check the turn if you haven't improved so he might be right to take one off with TT/99 and plan to fold to a turn bet.

The turn checkraise is a real cute idea and I'm going to think some more about but my gut reaction is that I like betting out better. He will fold some of the time on the turn and it can get expensive to see the river if he has something like KQs or 88.

Luke

[ike]

Fold preflop. This situation sucks for medium pocket pairs, sometimes you're a coinflip and sometimes you're crushed. You're never ahead preflop and you'll only know where you are in the hand well enough to exploit your position after you've spent several bets finding out.
If someone held a gun to your head and made you call preflop, you should probably raise the flop planning to fold to a 3bet, bet the any turn folding unimproved to a c/r, then checkdown the river. If your opponent wakes up and leads on the turn or river you're probably folding but might raise or call on certain boards.

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop. This situation sucks for medium pocket pairs, sometimes you're a coinflip and sometimes you're crushed. You're never ahead preflop and you'll only know where you are in the hand well enough to exploit your position after you've spent several bets finding out.
If someone held a gun to your head and made you call preflop, you should probably raise the flop planning to fold to a 3bet, bet the any turn folding unimproved to a c/r, then checkdown the river. If your opponent wakes up and leads on the turn or river you're probably folding but might raise or call on certain boards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think James raises 88 here and sometimes 77, but your point has been made

[LarsVegas]

I like this line by a lot, and I disagree strongly with the check-call turn/check-raise busted river variation that was mentioned by someone else.

I would prefer betting out on a turn Queen, Jack or Ten though (possibly even a King - I also disagree with the check-raise being "even better" with another King on the turn, although it's still OK to checkraise). With the bet-out cards, I also think 3-betting a raise is OK, first of all you have now improved your draw, secondly a hand like KQ must now be worried over a turned set in addition to AA/KK/AK (although you probably are unlikely to be threebetting AA or AK yourself on such a turn).

lars

[SA125]

[ QUOTE ]
To answer someone else's question: Yes, I would bet a pair there(but I wouldn't have cold-called any pair in t he first place).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad you pointed that out because, with all this talk of what he'd do with 66, I'm thinking the same thing. Although you're probably talking small-mid pairs.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
See I just think that unless more paint hits, no one is folding tt or 66 there. Why would they? What has changed?

If you bet the turn, what has changed is that you fired another barrel and increased the likelihood that you have a big pocket pair, KQ, or AK in the eyes of the 2+2er.

This 2+2er knows you will auto-bet the flop and sometimes check the turn if you haven't improved so he might be right to take one off with TT/99 and plan to fold to a turn bet.

The turn checkraise is a real cute idea and I'm going to think some more about but my gut reaction is that I like betting out better. He will fold some of the time on the turn and it can get expensive to see the river if he has something like KQs or 88.

Luke

[/ QUOTE ]

He does not know that I would check-fold unimproved big cards here because that would not be my standard line. Only a line against an opponent whom I know to be a solid player from a lot of experience with him or after reading his posts.
-James

[geormiet]

I think that a "solid" button cold calling another solid utg+2's open raise is one of the most revealing preflop situations there is. (other than maybe an utg limp rr)

Reasonable hands he can have are AQs, AJs, KQs, or TT, 99, 88...maybe you could throw in a couple other hands if he's loose, ATs, 77, or JJ if he's passive, but that's the basic range.

The flop comes K high, and he just calls your bet. This narrows it down - he could be waiting to raise the turn with KQ or a set, or he could have a pp JJ-99 and planning on seeing a cheap showdown. I think most players would raise with a flush draw.

If he has KQ, then the turn checkraise isn't too bad because it costs the same as getting raised and calling down. He can't 3 bet...and he MIGHT even think about folding if he really really respects your play and he's super tight. Only problem is if you whiff on the river, where you might lose an additional bet.

If he has a pocket pair, JJ-77, i think the turn c-r is even better. If he bets, he will fold a lot to the c-r where he would call down otherwise had you bet. If he checks, great, you got your free card in a pot you weren't going to win by betting anyway.

I guess the real problem is 88, but I would expect a good player to fastplay that against an utg raiser and a Kxx flop.


I like the play.

[skp]

I am the one who made the comment that a turn checkraise woule be "even better" when a King comes. My thinking is that when the second King comes and James bets, the other guy is indeed thinking "well, nothing has changed after the flop. In fact, it's now less likely that James has a King. I am going to call down with 99 here". But if James checkraises, he sells having the king because James is more likely to play AK that way on a KKxy board as opposed to a Kxyz board.

Also, on the KKxy board, James can be more assured that his opponent does not have KQs (i.e as opposed to a Kxyz board). If James checkraises, there is less chance that he now gets called by his opponent.

But again, we are talking about differences that are small and hardly worth talking about... yet I somehow do just that and take up 3 paragraphs no less...heh

[Steve Giufre]

Hey drunk guy I never said it wouldnt be a mistake for the dude with 66-1010 to check the turn. I only said James cant know this player will always bet his pair on the turn if thats what he does have. I'm gonna check raise the hell out of you later on today for writing that nonsense, and you are buying all the beers too.

[James282]

Turn blanked, I check-raised and he thought for 10 seconds before folding.

[Barry]

NH

How come every time I do this, my opponent has a set and 3-bets me and of course I miss on the river? I guess that is why I never get to stage III; stuff like that sends me right back to stage I.