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skipperbob
02-03-2005, 01:55 PM
In the "Game of Life" I had three major leaks; Women,Alcohol, & Casino games(particularly roulette), in no particular order of negative E.V. Age and circumstance have plugged those leaks.

In the game of Poker I am an average player, at best, who over any given, statistically significant, period of time gets stuck the collection. In the days of B&M cardrooms being stuck the collection was, usually, no worse than (-)$30 large/year....Now I am addicted to online NLHE, particularly $50-$100-$200 SnG's and, lately, the dreaded Steps. Playing somewhere between 10-30 hi-limit SnG's per day can get costly. Therein lies the rub.

I try to improve, particularly by reading the erudite postings at 2+2, and taking lessons from the best NLHE player I know (Irieguy)....And my game improves...But I have a huge leak = Playing Badly. When I am "PB'ing" I know I am, but I can't stop. And, even worse, when I'm "PB'ing" I do more of it. Typically these episodes follow on the heels of a great run, wipeout the results of that run, and force me to retrack my latest boast(s).."Pride Goeth before the Fall"....Irieguy tries to help, but he's the wrong kind of Doctor (I don't need an OB/GYN, I need a Psychiatrist. Preferably one who prefers drug-therapy to electro-shock)

Help Me.?

ColdestCall
02-03-2005, 02:18 PM
Take heart! You are very, very close to putting it all together. I have struggled with the tilt monster, and have found a way to keep it at bay.

Basically, you need an outlet that you can channel rage into while drinking heavily (it is never too late in life to take up ultra-violent video games - these work exceptionally well). When you feel the tilt coming on, stop playing for the day immediately, and absorb yourself into a fantasy world of booze and violence until you can no longer focus, then go to sleep. You will play better the next day.

If booze is not an option, either for health reasons or because you will be unable to keep yourself from the computer once you get loaded, you could eliminate from the above equation, or you could try vigorous exericse. Also, leaving the house for a therapeutic massage is probably less expensive than tilt. There is also always online chess and backgammon, going to a driving range and hitting balls as hard as you can with your driver without regard for where they go, and, i'm sure countless other diversions.

The key, and the common thread, is that when you feel PB coming on you must stop playing, but, because you want to continue playing, you have to channel your anger and aggression into something else until it dissipates. Otherwise, you will just start PBing again.

skipperbob
02-03-2005, 02:44 PM
Thank You....Booze is always an option...So are Tits

ColdestCall
02-03-2005, 02:49 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Thank You....Booze is always an option...So are Tits

[/ QUOTE ]

Now you're thinkin! I predict if you adhere to this plan both your ROI and your OLEI (overall life enjoyment index) will soar.

Afrosquad
02-03-2005, 03:04 PM
Haha, awesome post. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

DrPhysic
02-03-2005, 03:10 PM
Hey, golf balls are a great way to get out agression!

'Course, trying to tigerwoods the thang 350yds on the long drive hole is how I tore the rotator cuff, too.

Doc

lacky
02-03-2005, 03:13 PM
If this post is seriose, and underneath the humer I think it is, sound alot like ADHD. If you think it might be (Irie can help there) meds work better than you could hope.

Steve

faquewdikhed
02-03-2005, 03:16 PM
I think I'm ADHD... sorry to hijack. I'm very bright, and a hard worker, but very uninterested and lazy in school. All I do in class is sleep, read poker books, and take a test sometimes. Maybe I should see a doctor?

jcm4ccc
02-03-2005, 03:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]
In the "Game of Life" I had three major leaks; Women,Alcohol, & Casino games(particularly roulette), in no particular order of negative E.V. Age and circumstance have plugged those leaks.

In the game of Poker I am an average player, at best, who over any given, statistically significant, period of time gets stuck the collection. In the days of B&M cardrooms being stuck the collection was, usually, no worse than (-)$30 large/year....Now I am addicted to online NLHE, particularly $50-$100-$200 SnG's and, lately, the dreaded Steps. Playing somewhere between 10-30 hi-limit SnG's per day can get costly. Therein lies the rub.

I try to improve, particularly by reading the erudite postings at 2+2, and taking lessons from the best NLHE player I know (Irieguy)....And my game improves...But I have a huge leak = Playing Badly. When I am "PB'ing" I know I am, but I can't stop. And, even worse, when I'm "PB'ing" I do more of it. Typically these episodes follow on the heels of a great run, wipeout the results of that run, and force me to retrack my latest boast(s).."Pride Goeth before the Fall"....Irieguy tries to help, but he's the wrong kind of Doctor (I don't need an OB/GYN, I need a Psychiatrist. Preferably one who prefers drug-therapy to electro-shock)

Help Me.?

[/ QUOTE ]

You know what you need to do. You've known it all your life--drink less, stay away from certain kinds of women, become more disciplined in your gambling.

You can and should come up with a plan to help you with this problem--set limits (I will bet this much on a given day), set rules (when I lose 4 Sngs in a row, I must stop for the day), etc. etc. etc. Anything that is going to enforce that discipline.

So why can't you do this? Why can't you be more disciplined? This seems to be the key: "When I am "PB'ing" I know I am, but I can't stop. And, even worse, when I'm "PB'ing" I do more of it."

There's a thought process that is going on behind these actions. You have some kind of thoughts going on that is allowing you to continue this behavior, and in fact is convincing you that your behavior is rational. You have to identify the thoughts, then counteract them with reality. When you are playing badly, say to yourself "why am I continuing to play?" Don't settle for an easy answer. Figure out why you continue to play when you know you shouldn't.


Here are some possible thoughts (your thoughts are unique to yourself. these are just possible examples):

If I can win just one SnG, I'll feel better.
I can't quit until I break even for the day.
If I just keep playing, the luck has to swing my way.
I am better than these guys. I can't keep losing like this.
I hate that my ROI is decreasing. I gotta keep playing until my ROI is back to normal.


Here are some examples of counteracting those thoughts:
If I can win just one SnG, I'll feel better. [BUT I'LL FEEL WORSE IF I CONTINUE TO LOSE, SO I SHOULD JUST QUIT]
I can't quit until I break even for the day. [YES I CAN. WHAT DOES ONE DAY MATTER, GIVEN THE VARIABILITY OF POKER]
If I just keep playing, the luck has to swing my way. [NO IT DOESN'T. I CAN CONTINUE TO PLAY WELL AND HAVE BAD LUCK]
I am better than these guys. I can't keep losing like this. [YES I CAN. THE BEST PLAYER OFTEN LOSES IN POKER]
I hate that my ROI is decreasing. I gotta keep playing until my ROI is back to normal. [NO I DON'T. ROI WILL SUFFER NORMAL VARIATIONS].

blah blah blah blah

This is pretty basic advice, I know, but it works. I think the best poker players do this kind of thinking automatically. They know they are on tilt and they have some kind of internal dialogue that allows them to leave the table (or shut down the computer).

So seriously, come up with a plan for gambling and write it down (you must write it down). The plan tells you when to gamble--listen to the plan rather than your feelings.

And here's what you should say to yourself once a day (once you have developed your plan).

"I HAVE A PLAN. MY ROI WILL INCREASE IF I STICK TO THE PLAN. I AM WORSE THAN A [censored] FISH IF I DON'T STICK TO THE PLAN, BECAUSE I ACTUALLY KNOW HOW TO PLAY POKER."

And guess what? Gambling is less fun when you stick to a plan. Just like women that are good for you are less fun than women that aren't. Just like drinking a little is less fun than drinking a lot. That's the price you have to pay if you are really serious about changing your behavior. Approach gambling like a job, not like a way to get your rocks off.

Joe McClintock, Ph.D.
Clinical Psychologist

skipperbob
02-03-2005, 03:43 PM
OMG: Smartass repartee is my forte. I invented it. But you have rendered me without cynical repose. Any response other than a heartfelt "Thank You" would be an insult

lacky
02-03-2005, 03:53 PM
Pretty much summed up collage for me. I work my ass of on what interests me but have a very hard time making myself do what doesn't. My bills are always late, my homework was late or not done, my bosses hated me because I couldn't stay on task, etc. I would say if you think you might be search around a bit and read about it. If you still think so go do something about it. I'm almost 38 and started meds about 4 months ago, which was about 260 months later than I should have.

Steve

lacky
02-03-2005, 04:00 PM
yep, if he decides to specailize in gamblers sign me up as the first patient. WOW

ReDeYES88
02-03-2005, 04:14 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Pretty much summed up collage for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny. . .I thought THIS pretty much summed up college for you. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

lacky
02-03-2005, 04:21 PM
nah, I'm old. poker came much later. I do have a degree in Biology and Secondary Ed. Only took 6 years too. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Go Aggies (UC Davis)
Go Broncos (Boise State)

Steve

e_fermat
02-03-2005, 05:34 PM
Although I'm just a bystander in this thread, I'd have to say that this is probably the most valuable post I've read here as I think what you've said to Bob applies to a lot of people here to some degree or another. Thanks Joe.

Irieguy
02-03-2005, 06:46 PM
Wow, there's a high quality reply.

There was a recent "Intelligent Gambler" edition that discussed some psychological tendencies with regard to gambling. Apparently, people are much more willing to assume risk if they are either losing or winning than they are if they are faced with an initial proposition.

In other words, if you offer a guaranteed $100 vs. a 50-50 shot at winning $220, most people would chose the guaranteed $100 even though it's a bad deal. But after you give them the $100, if you were to offer them the same deal again, they would flip... since they are already "playing on the house's money." On the other hand, if you asked someone with a $100 debt if they would flip for a chance to erase the debt, or accept a guaranteed $60, they would flip for it. So people tend to be highly irrational with regard to gambling, and their tendencies are influenced by their own perceived current financial situation... even though that perception is entirely arbitrary.

So here's how all of that may relate to you, skipper:

Once you are up a good amount, or down a good amount, your mind begins to become more comfortable with the idea of accepting risk in the interest of gain. The gambler in your soul is released from the shackles of reason. This is a subconscious shift in how you perceive risk/reward propositions.

So, somebody pushes all-in and gets a caller behind him. You are in the BB with QQ and it's level 1. You know this is a clear fold. BUT... you think... QQ is pretty damn good and if you could triple up in level 1 you would have a very good chance of winning the $1000 first prize. On the first SNG of the day you would fold this quickly. But now that you are up a few grand... why not gamble and take a shot at really making a run?

Perhaps one way to fight this demon is to understand that by playing correctly (playing good), you are giving yourself the best chance possible of experiencing a huge winning streak. PB'ing basically involves playing too many hands in an attempt to win more, faster. But maybe if you help yourself realize that you can't ever do any better than first place in a SNG (no matter how fast you get the chips), the gambler in you may be more accepting of GoodBob's approach to the game. After all BadBob and GoodBob are really looking for the same thing in life...

I have the same demons. I have conquered them in SNGs because I now understand at the deepest level possible that I can experience the joy of loot and booty if I simply play the right way. So BadIrie and GoodIrie have struck a deal: as long as GoodIrie keeps BadIrie placated with an ample supply of Heineken, BadIrie will let GoodIrie make the poker decisions. A mollified BadIrie is an ally indeed. Figure out what BadBob needs to stay the F out of the way when GoodBob is playing and give it to him. You'll both be happy in the end.

Irieguy

eastbay
02-04-2005, 12:55 AM
"Doctor, it hurts when I do 'this.'"
"Don't do that."

Seriously, dude, what do you expect us to say? If I wanted to go all armchair psychiatrist on you, I'd say you're exhibiting the classic symptoms of someone who fears success and insists on undermining his own success at all costs. I don't know why some people do this but I know that they do. I also don't have a clue how to fix it.

Maybe you should start with some basic therapy? Probably cheaper.

Edit: well my post seems pretty hackish after reading the rest of the thread. But I don't think seeing a therapist would be a bad choice for anyone who is repeatedly doing things they know they should not do and cannot stop.

eastbay