How to play KQo

[RyGreen18]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif KQo is one of my big leaks. Instinctually, it usually seems like a call in LP no matter how many limpers are present, even with a raise and a couple of CC's. Recently, I have tried to refine my thinking about the hand and play it less often. I was wondering, from a theory perspective, how you all play KQo. Here are my questions:

Being offsuited, it prefers few players. Given that, should I raise from MP? should i call from LP? If there are many limpers behind me, should I fold from MP+3? or from CO? what about against a raise, with or without CCers? How much does the texture of the table play into this? Any comments or discussion would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[einbert]

As a rule, I fold KQo to a raise. Even against a loose raiser (let's say PFR ~10%, much looser than the average 2+2er in a full ring game), your hand doesn't compare favorably to his holdings. He will probably be raising with anything from 99-Ax-AA-KT+. Of these, your hand is only breakeven against 99, TT and JJ and is only favored against KT and KJ. Defending from the blinds is another issue, but I'm probably going to drop KQo from the SB if several players have already CC'ed a raise. It just doesn't play well at all in multiway pots, especially ones that have been raised before the flop. Let's say the flop comes:

QdTd3c

Your reverse implied odds are huge. You might already be up against KK, AA, AQ or worse TT or QQ. By the river, you may have lost to a flush or straight draw. Stick to heads up blind defense when playing KQo against a raise.

And for the same reason, you should raise KQo from MP. You want to fold out the blinds if possible, and you want to discourage the pot from being large and multiway. The ideal scenario for you flopping top pair is a two- or three-way pot.

The other thing about KQo is not to play it like AKo when the flop misses. When you miss the flop with AKo, you generally have 3-6 outs. When you miss the flop with KQo, you on average have fewer outs. People at these levels do play Kx and Qx, so you will often be reverse dominated after the flop (this is especially true if a J or T falls). With AKo I usually take off a card on the flop getting 8-1, but with KQo my cutoff line is closer to 10-1 because it's just not as strong. And remember that even when you do make top pair anyone with an A has a redraw against you.

Just my thoughts on the hand.

[Dangergirl]

To a raise, I also agree that a fold is right, and in MP I raise with KQo.

When you say it is a big leak, I'm just curious as to how big your Poker tracker database is? I mean what kind of sample size are we talking about here and how many times have you played KQo? I have a smaller sample size of about 60k hands but KQo has been a decent winner for me.

There have also been a few other threads covering KQ play.

[RyGreen18]

my database isnt that big either. ive played KQo 161 times, vpip=92, and lost .81bb/hand on it. The VPIP number is what altered me today when I analyized my PT data. But I'm more concerned with the actual application to the table. Obviously, I need to drop it much more often. Ill do a search for KQ posts as well.
One more question though, how do you suggest playing this in LP with several limpers? At your average loose/passive Party table, this seems +EV to call. So lets say I call, the flop comes something like QT6, 2 to a flush and someone from MP bets, how do I handle action when I hit the Q or K? I'm guessing that most would raise to narrow the field (at least that is what i would do)

[einbert]

First of all, I would probably have raised PF.

Secondly, you're right in that you definitely have to raise this flop, especially if you can protect your hand by making >=1 player call two bets cold on the flop.

[RyGreen18]

Raise PF in LP with several limpers? I'd like to hear more of your thinking on this one. To me, it seems questionable if I have +EV. If I do, its not by that much, and raising will give odds for multiple draws to call on the flop if i do hit top pair (perhaps it would give me odds to call straight draws as well)

[RyGreen18]

Thought I'd post a KQo hand that related to the discussion. Raising in MP probably won me this pot, so thanks for the advice

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, BB folds.

River: (6.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

[djack]

[ QUOTE ]

The other thing about KQo is not to play it like AKo when the flop misses. When you miss the flop with AKo, you generally have 3-6 outs. When you miss the flop with KQo, you on average have fewer outs. People at these levels do play Kx and Qx, so you will often be reverse dominated after the flop (this is especially true if a J or T falls). With AKo I usually take off a card on the flop getting 8-1, but with KQo my cutoff line is closer to 10-1 because it's just not as strong.

[/ QUOTE ] Sklansky and Malmuth have written that it's better to take a card off with KQ than with AK.

[RyGreen18]

really? why is that?

[ChipsAhoya]

[ QUOTE ]
reallly? why is that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because if people are playing Kx and Qx, they are definitely playing Ax and Axs. It's much more likely for someone to have the Ax, especially at low limts where a large number of people will always call any Ax and sometimes/usually even raises, hoping the raiser has KK or something.

I myself have found that raising KQ up front about 70-80% of the time and just calling in the back if there's been a lot of limpers (but raising almost all the time if there hasn't) works well at low limit because you really need to clear the field and people should let you know if they have a better hand. The only thing you have to watch for is if AK or AQ calls but doesn't re-raise.

-ChipsAhoya

[jaxmike]

personally, I rarely limp with KQ suited or not. I usually raise or fold with it.

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
reallly? why is that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because if people are playing Kx and Qx, they are definitely playing Ax and Axs. It's much more likely for someone to have the Ax, especially at low limts where a large number of people will always call any Ax and sometimes/usually even raises, hoping the raiser has KK or something.

I myself have found that raising KQ up front about 70-80% of the time and just calling in the back if there's been a lot of limpers (but raising almost all the time if there hasn't) works well at low limit because you really need to clear the field and people should let you know if they have a better hand. The only thing you have to watch for is if AK or AQ calls but doesn't re-raise.

-ChipsAhoya

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for that analysis--I see what you mean.
Which book in particular is this written in? Obviously I need to reread some section of some book, because I really don't remember this.

I should've stated my thinking differently. The truth is that I am more aggressive with a missed AK after the flop than a missed KQ, because AK has at least some chance of winning unimproved. AK is going to be beating any unpaired hand after the flop whenever neither hand pairs (~12% of the time), but KQ is only going to be beating Kx and lower when neither hand pairs.

[Niediam]

Read Small Stakes Hold'em by Miller, Sklansky, and Malmuth. It will answer most, if not all, of your questions.

[TripleH68]

I raise KQo nearly all the time...and fold it to a raise nearly all the time. It dominates a lot of limping hands like KJ,KT,QJ,QT,etc. In LP getting the money in preflop costs you one SB but can make these limpers pay before they don't like their hands on the flop. Then decide how to proceed after the flop. If you miss entirely the difference between AK and KQ winning unimproved is small...

[damaniac]

HPFAP, pp. 60-61...

Just what was said before, since people love Ax but not so much Kx and Qx, the chances of reverse domination are much slimmer.

[Tboner7]

OK, I'm new here and was just wondering what all this BB, SB, EV+ or whatever and other stuff means. I've keep seeing this in every thread and don't know what you all are talking about. Could ya fill me in?

[Dangergirl]

In the Micro Limit forums there is an FAQ that was made for noobs. It answers some of these questions. Btspider did a great job creating it. Here is the link:

FAQ (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1659321&amp;page=0&amp;view=colla psed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1)

[wrto4556]

In loose games, where everyone will cold call a raise, I will raise KQo from any position in an unraised pot. But I will not cold call a raise with it. People have trouble with AJo, too. I play'em both the same way. Raise if unraised from anywhere, and muck to almost any raise.

When you tend to get alot of passive cold calls, your pot equity is big enough to make raising correct. however, if i'm in a tight game, I will limp from EP as tight players will only call or raise with a smaller and better spectrum of hands.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
The other thing about KQo is not to play it like AKo when the flop misses. When you miss the flop with AKo, you generally have 3-6 outs. When you miss the flop with KQo, you on average have fewer outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't true. People will play and chase with Ax much, much more often than Kx or Qx.

[ QUOTE ]
And remember that even when you do make top pair anyone with an A has a redraw against you.


[/ QUOTE ]

You really worry about someone drawing to 3 outs? I don't mind them calling my turn bet with that when I spike a pair.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Instinctually, it usually seems like a call in LP no matter how many limpers are present, even with a raise and a couple of CC's.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you never coldcalled with KQo again, it would plug a huge leak.

If it's an LAG on your right, you could then 3 bet it to isolate. But quit coldcalling with it. You'll notice an immediate improvement in your results with it.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
AK is going to be beating any unpaired hand after the flop whenever neither hand pairs (~12% of the time), but KQ is only going to be beating Kx and lower when neither hand pairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

AK will be reverse dominated much, much more than KQ.

b

[theblitz]

[ QUOTE ]

If you never coldcalled with KQo again, it would plug a huge leak.


[/ QUOTE ]

I just checked my PT stats on KQo.
By excluding all the hands that I cold called I see a vast improvement in my return (from negative to positive!).

Well, no more cold calling KQo for me.

[RyGreen18]

i think this is the reason KQo has been in the red for me, the cold calling. i too see a vast improvement in the stats when i take out the cc's. so no more cold calling, 3-bet a lag to my left, call in EP in a tight game, raise in MP if everyone folds to me, all of this makes logical sense now. thank you all for the discussion, this will vastly improve my game