Beating the rake - What limit?

[SomethingClever]

What is the lowest limit hold em you can play in Vegas and still beat the rake?

Is 3/6 even worth it? Or should I just play 4/8 or 5/10?

I don't think I want to play higher than 5/10.

Also, how mandatory is tipping?

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
What is the lowest limit hold em you can play in Vegas and still beat the rake?

Is 3/6 even worth it? Or should I just play 4/8 or 5/10?

I don't think I want to play higher than 5/10.

Also, how mandatory is tipping?

[/ QUOTE ]

You can beat the rake at any limit, even 2/4. Tipping, IMO is mandatory, only a-holes don't tip. If you don't want to tip, then don't play live, that's what the internet is for.

[bobbyi]

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Also, how mandatory is tipping?

[/ QUOTE ]
There is no enforcement to make you tip. But you are really supposed to tip. It's like a restaurant. If you want to walk out and leave exactly enough cash to cover you bill with no tip for the waiter you can. Tipping isn't "mandatory". But how good would you feel about doing this routinely? If you play in the same cardroom a lot, then tipping is especially important because you'll get the same dealers a lot and they'll remember and notice that you never tip them. However, there is no need to tip excessively. If you are trying to save money, you should never tip more than $1 no matter how big the pot is. Also, on very small pots, it's fine not to tip. You'll see other people tip $5 and tip when stealing the blinds and so forth, but that's ridiculous. Don't feel pressured by what they do. I would tip the first pot I get from any dealer and would always tip at least once if I win a few pots in a row, even if they are all too small individually to hit my tipping threshold. You want to let the deaelers see that you tip reasonably often so they don't hate you.

[meep_42]

Why, exactly, would I care if a dealer hates me?

-d

[bobbyi]

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Why, exactly, would I care if a dealer hates me?

[/ QUOTE ]
Whatever. If you don't care, then don't tip tealers. If you also want to never tip in restaurants and never tip cab drivers and never tip anyone, go ahead. He asked about how mandatory tipping is and tried to explain. I'm not interested in debating it or trying to convince you that you would be a jerk for not tipping and that if you play regularly in a cardroom you are best off having the employees not hate you. You're an adult and can make your own decisions about how you want to live your life and what kind of person you want to be.

[PoorLawyer]

i was talking to a dealer at the trop in AC last weekend and they said they make $4/hour before their tips.

[meep_42]

I tip dealers. I tip them well. I don't do it because I think they'll dislike me, though. That's the dumbest reason i've ever heard. What are they gonna do, change your cards?

-d

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

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What are they gonna do, change your cards?

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No, but I'd imagine several small things could go against you... favorable borderline decisions, being anal on any faux pas you make and not so much on things other players do wrong, etc.

[bobbyi]

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I tip them well. I don't do it because I think they'll dislike me, though. That's the dumbest reason i've ever heard.

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Again, I'm not here to coninve anyone. If you don't see any reason why it's not good to be hated by the employees of an establishment where you may be involved in decisions and disputes with thousands of dollars riding on them, then you can let them hate you. I really don't care.

[jogumon]

I just tip a buck every hand i win that sees the flop, and pretty much everyone else I play with does too. It seems pretty standard. I just look at it as part of the rake.

[PatJ]

The rake pays the salaries of casino/cardroom employees.
Dealers are payed minimum wage.
Think of the people that work at Wallmart and McDonalds.
They make minimum wage.
Do you want those people dealing you cards?

It's to the interest of all of us if there are competent dealers. If we didn't tip, dealers would leave in a second and get jobs as waiters - where they'd still make minumum wage but earn a gratuity as well.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
I tip dealers. I tip them well. I don't do it because I think they'll dislike me, though. That's the dumbest reason i've ever heard. What are they gonna do, change your cards?

-d

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree with you that having dealers like or dislike you is effectively irrelevant to what cards you get, but get an annoyed dealer (especially at a casino like Foxwoods where they pool tips) and the following are likely to happen:

1) The dealer slows down as they are mad.

2) Your cards oftentimes end up not in front of you ... but in the middle of the table or off to the side.

3) You get random "accidentally" flipped up cards.

They shouldn't do it and some don't -- but some do ... so we all do (tip).

I don't have a hard and fast rule, but small pots I can't imagine anyone being upset at not getting a tip, and I always just tip $1 UNLESS it's a huge pot AND I'm at a place where the dealers keep their tips.

When I'm in Vegas and some dude puts me on a rush for a few hundred bucks, I have no qualms about throwing him an extra $5 on his way out. Sure, he didn't "do" anything, but I'm X hundred richer as he leaves and now, I don't know, random movie rental is on me.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[SomethingClever]

ty for the replies.

I was planning on tipping a buck on pretty much every pot over a couple BB.

But I will not tip more than $1... does that seem reasonable?

And someone wrote that the 2/4 rake is beatable... is that really true? Is that because the rake is cheap in Vegas? Even with the tipping factored in?

Thanks again.

[Bremen]

[ QUOTE ]
And someone wrote that the 2/4 rake is beatable... is that really true? Is that because the rake is cheap in Vegas? Even with the tipping factored in?

[/ QUOTE ]
The rake is beatable because the players are so bad. It would not be uncommon to see the whole table limp at a 2/4 table. Needless to say in these situations TPTK is not a great place to be, but your nut flush draws are paid off quite a bit. Basically you just need to wait for strong draws and then pump them. Read small stakes hold'em for a in depth strategy. Be aware though that raising to drive people out may not be very effective. I've seen people call three bets cold quite often at these tables (even calling a cap cold once!)

[mrpurple]

[ QUOTE ]
ty for the replies.

I was planning on tipping a buck on pretty much every pot over a couple BB.

But I will not tip more than $1... does that seem reasonable?

And someone wrote that the 2/4 rake is beatable... is that really true? Is that because the rake is cheap in Vegas? Even with the tipping factored in?

Thanks again.

[/ QUOTE ]


No, Its becuase the competition is bad. Where I play on a regular basis, Seneca Niagara, the pots on the $2-$4 tables are often a lot larger then those at $6-$12. 2 or 3 extra people paying to see the flop every hand will more then cover the rake for you.

[underaged]

i only tip when i'm positive during a session. If the dealer's giving me cold cards then he must pay /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[chucksim]

[ QUOTE ]
I tip dealers. I tip them well. I don't do it because I think they'll dislike me, though. That's the dumbest reason i've ever heard. What are they gonna do, change your cards?

-d

[/ QUOTE ]

No, but don't expect the dealer to give you any benefit of the doubt in a borderline situation if you keep stiffing them.

[meep_42]

I'm still not sure I can think of a borderline situation.
Protect your cards. Clearly announce your action to the table before acting. Call the floor if you suspect being mistreated.

All of this is irrelavant to tipping, and what you should do anyway.

I tip because good dealers increase the amount of fun and speed of a game, keep everything smooth, and make [censored] for wages. Not because I want them to like me or favor me in any way. They're supposed to be professionals, they should act like it, tip or no.

-d

[lucas9000]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, how mandatory is tipping?

[/ QUOTE ]
There is no enforcement to make you tip. But you are really supposed to tip. It's like a restaurant. If you want to walk out and leave exactly enough cash to cover you bill with no tip for the waiter you can. Tipping isn't "mandatory". But how good would you feel about doing this routinely? If you play in the same cardroom a lot, then tipping is especially important because you'll get the same dealers a lot and they'll remember and notice that you never tip them. However, there is no need to tip excessively. If you are trying to save money, you should never tip more than $1 no matter how big the pot is. Also, on very small pots, it's fine not to tip. You'll see other people tip $5 and tip when stealing the blinds and so forth, but that's ridiculous. Don't feel pressured by what they do. I would tip the first pot I get from any dealer and would always tip at least once if I win a few pots in a row, even if they are all too small individually to hit my tipping threshold. You want to let the deaelers see that you tip reasonably often so they don't hate you.

[/ QUOTE ]

on small pots or chopped pots that were heads up, i'll usually tell the deal that i'll get them next time, and i think they appreciate that. the next real pot i win i might tip a bit more to make up for it. i like paul phillips' philosophy regarding not tipping more when the pot is really big: basically he says the dealers don't fade his losses, so they aren't entitled to a larger tip when he wins a big pot.

i think the bottom line is how good the dealer is. i will absolutely tip more if the dealer is doing a good job, and i will absolutely tip less/nothing if the dealer is a prick.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

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i think the bottom line is how good the dealer is. i will absolutely tip more if the dealer is doing a good job, and i will absolutely tip less/nothing if the dealer is a prick.

[/ QUOTE ]
I also tend to tip more when the dealers aren't pooling. When I tip someone, I want that person to be getting the tip, not 10% of it and the rest goes to all the other schmoes.

[StevieG]

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I tip because good dealers increase the amount of fun and speed of a game, keep everything smooth, and make [censored] for wages. Not because I want them to like me or favor me in any way.

[/ QUOTE ]

right on.

The only thing I might add is "curteous and clear help for players" but that is implicit in "keep everything smooth." Dealers than make inexperienced players feel at home and comfortable are worth extra in tips.

[TomBrooks]

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i only tip when i'm positive during a session. If the dealer's giving me cold cards...

[/ QUOTE ]
I was wondering if most people still tip the dealer if they're negative at the table, or if they usually wait until they're at least up something.

[Stew]

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i only tip when i'm positive during a session. If the dealer's giving me cold cards...

[/ QUOTE ]
I was wondering if most people still tip the dealer if they're negative at the table, or if they usually wait until they're at least up something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tipping should have nothing to do with whether you are winning or losing. It's all about the dealer and the service they provide.

[TomBrooks]

What is the tipping custom for someone who hasn't won a pot in a long time? They are enjoying the services of the dealer as much as anyone else. The dealer is not responsible if they do not get good cards or play the cards they get well.

[Nomad84]

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What is the tipping custom for someone who hasn't won a pot in a long time? They are enjoying the services of the dealer as much as anyone else. The dealer is not responsible if they do not get good cards or play the cards they get well.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they do an especially good job, I might toss them a buck when they are getting up, but in general, I wait until I win a pot. I'm a newb though, so I don't know what is typical.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

This comes up fairly often. No, tipping is not mandatory, but it is expected and you should tip. At most games, a buck a pot is considered standard. At some low-limit Vegas games, a buck is the tourist standard, while local rocks keep a stack of 50-cent pieces for tips. If you steal the blinds, the dealer will not expect a tip, but will be pleased. There is no need to tip extra for a monster pot. I tip a buck when I steal the blinds, and a buck when I win a 20BB pot. Sometimes I toss an especially pleasant or efficient dealer a bit extra at the end of his/her down. There's one real dick at Canterbury who refuses to tip at all. Once or twice I've madea comment on this and tossed the dealer a buck when he wins a pot. Doesn't seem to faze the bastard. Dealers all hate him, but it doesn't stop him from playing every day, all day. I'm sure he's saved many thousands of dollars over the years, but he's still a dick.

You decide...

[AKQJ10]

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i like paul phillips' philosophy regarding not tipping more when the pot is really big: basically he says the dealers don't fade his losses, so they aren't entitled to a larger tip when he wins a big pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. I've got to start remembering that no one expects me to toke more than a dollar. Last night at Foxwoods i was on such an emotional high after my AKs made quad aces to win a 5-way-capped preflop (!) 4/8 pot that I gave a $2 chip. I suppose if I restrain myself to only giving the extra buck for quads or better with a huge pot, I'll probably be OK in the long run. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Once I tossed a Borgata dealer a red $5 because of her robot-like speed at pitching the cards, but that's more along the lines of giving to a street performer.

[MCS]

I would surmise that any game is beatable even with the rake.

You should tip.

My own unofficial policies are as follows: I tip pretty consistently but not excessively. I always ask if the dealers pool tips and take that into account when I tip. If the dealer is good, I generally tip $1 per pot, unless the pot is about 2.5 BB or less, in which case I only tip about 50% of the time. I don't feel compelled to tip in small pots. I sometimes don't tip dealers if they're rude. If a dealer is good but I go their whole down without winning a pot, I give them a couple of bucks after they get up. I've never tipped more than $2 for a pot.

[Chipr777]

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always ask if the dealers pool tips and take that into account when I tip.

[/ QUOTE ]
Does my wife count? She seems to get it all anyways.

[JohnnyHumongous]

[ QUOTE ]
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What is the tipping custom for someone who hasn't won a pot in a long time? They are enjoying the services of the dealer as much as anyone else. The dealer is not responsible if they do not get good cards or play the cards they get well.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they do an especially good job, I might toss them a buck when they are getting up, but in general, I wait until I win a pot. I'm a newb though, so I don't know what is typical.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love the internet.

[shawn_p]

If you tip a dealer a buck every fourth pot that you win, then you are tipping more than your fair share. Don’t worry about being called a “dick” on an internet forum for tipping with the optimum frequency, you add to your EV for the session when you do. No matter what limits you play wouldn’t you like a grand or two extra this year?
/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
What is the lowest limit hold em you can play in Vegas and still beat the rake?

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is just a vacation, I wouldn't worry too much about the longterm effects of the rake since it will be a very small timeframe.

If planning on playing regularly: Rake-wise 3-6 is a grind. 4-8 is a better deal but still a grind. If they have the same player pool at both, go for the higher limit.

Tips? When I played regular 4-8, the pot had to be $30 for me to tip. Even when a dealer asked me about it (or if it just came up), out of curiousity not from thinking they were slighted, they seemed very agreeable and understanding for my reasoning.

b

[bernie]

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If you don't see any reason why it's not good to be hated by the employees of an establishment where you may be involved in decisions and disputes with thousands of dollars riding on them, then you can let them hate you. I really don't care

[/ QUOTE ]

Especially when some of those dealers become floorpeople actually making the decisions. It's a minor reason, but one to consider.

Especially if you've ever heard how some dealers (not the chronic complaining dealers) view those that stiff them.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Not because I want them to like me or favor me in any way. They're supposed to be professionals, they should act like it, tip or no.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. However, they aren't machines.

I can gaurantee you that this isn't bobbyi's sole reason for tipping. Not even in a primary sense. But it is a nice benefit from tipping along with many other factors. To deny that whether you tip or not has any effect on a decision or mistake that could arise, watch for it. It happens.

Personell don't necesarily notice the 'tippers' nearly as much as they notice the 'stiffers'. Even the regular players notice the 'stiffers'.

b

[RydenStoompala]

Jakers! Enough on the dealer tipping already. Every other thread gets hijacked down cheap street. Don't tip them! Who cares? They're probably sleeping with your wife anyway.

You can beat most limits despite rake but at the lower end it's a real tight grind. The percentages stay close but 2 BB per hour at 20-40 is sure more noticeable than the same at 3-6. Or maybe not. Play in your comfort zone, at a level where you'd checkraise your own granny just to see her cry.

Get yourself one of those Phil Helmuth card protectors and your win rate is sure to increase.

[Bulldog]

After explaining to my friend that it would be impossible to beat the rake at the 2/4 O8 game at the Taj, we sat down for an hour and he won $10 and I won $55 (!). Sample size too small, but funny anyway. And I'm sure that no more than 15 or maybe 20 percent of the players at this game are coming out ahead in the long run.

[MarkL444]

you are right to assume that its difficult beating the rake at the lowest limits (3/5, etc), its much tougher than you will be used to online but definately possible.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Any of the games can be beaten, despite the rake. 5-10 doesn't really exist in vegas, it's 4-8 or 6-12.

You should just consider tipping to be mandatory and don't try to rationalize being a friggin' stiff jerk. This is vegas, not the friggin' internet.

al

[Nomad84]

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[ QUOTE ]
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What is the tipping custom for someone who hasn't won a pot in a long time? They are enjoying the services of the dealer as much as anyone else. The dealer is not responsible if they do not get good cards or play the cards they get well.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they do an especially good job, I might toss them a buck when they are getting up, but in general, I wait until I win a pot. I'm a newb though, so I don't know what is typical.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love the internet.

[/ QUOTE ]

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