river experiment, 5-5 NL

[turnipmonster]

villian in this hand seemed passive yet donklike.

I (1200) limp behind 3 limpers with KsTs on the button, blinds check and it's off to the races with 30 in the middle.

flop is 2c 6s Jh. we all check.

turn is 8s. checked to me, I bet 30, CO (500) calls.

river is 5s. CO bets 90, I minraise (!) to 180, CO pushes. your move?

[Post-Oak]

In the absence of a clear read that this guy is clueless, I fold. A reasonable player will have the A high flush.

He check called the turn and then bet out when a 3rd spade hit on the river. Now he has reraised you all-in, and you must give him credit for the nut flush. Unless you know he has no idea how to play the game.

I fold.

[Usagi_yo]

I don't know what I'm going to do. I hate this spot. I played a KTs, hit my flush and now facing big bets. Makes me not ever wanna draw to flushes other then Ace High flushes. Or, back door flushes with re-drawing hands. Come to think of it, I think I'm going to immediatly fold.

[turnipmonster]

I am really more curious about what people think of the minraise on the river, this is the first time I had ever done it. the subsequent fold is one of those things that seems hard but is actually easy /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

--turnipmonster

[JaBlue]

What does the minraise accomplish? Do you suspect that he has the nut flush and want to find out cheaply (instead of your standard raise) while still making more money from the weaker flushes?

If this isn't your objective, I don't know what it is.

I think its an iffy play at best unless you're 100% sure that a reraise means the nuts from this guy.

Is it possible that you're inducing a reraise where a bigger, more standard, raise would force a small flush into calling?

Or are you just trying to confuse the hell out of everyone...


Anyway, I'm looking forward to the explanation for why you made this move.

[AZK]

I don't know if I'm such a fan here, I'm more a fan of minraising on completely ragged rainbow boards with a ragged two pair or TPTK, a hand where I can extract a little more value the times I'm ahead but easily release when I'm not, here if I minraised and someone came over the top I'd feel like throwing up. You claim it was an easy lay down, to lay down 2nd nuts, it seems inconsistent with minraising the river for value? Am I way off?

[Voltron87]

This is a tough decision, depending on who you're playing. The way the hand played out he definitely could have a flush, but against some players here in the 5/5 game I play you are ahead.

About the minraise I have no idea. 80-90% of the time when you do this play with the second nuts or close to it you will get a call but you are also opening yourself up to a reraise... I would probably only use the minraise when you are sure you are ahead (ie when there has been some betting which you can look at, this hand everyone just kind of ended up at the river without saying anything about their hand.)

Where was this game?

[Post-Oak]

He would have to be a real fish/calling station for me to like this raise. You describe him as passive. He check called the turn and then came out firing a pot sized bet when the flush card hit the river. This sure looks like a flush considering he is a passive player. I agree that you can make a lot of money by value betting rivers against passive calling station types, but raising and reopening the betting against a passive player who suddenly comes alive is another story.

I think I like a flat call here best, but I don't hate the minraise.

[turnipmonster]

the game was in nyc. my thoughts were, oh boy, I just made a flush, if I raise the pot he will have 200 left and if he raises me allin I will be getting 3 to 1 and I hate fold the 4th nuts for 3-1, but he will have me beat a lot here. if he has a small flush then he will pay me off 1000% of the time, and probably will not reraise. my plan was to minraise and then fold to a reraise.

I still don't know if I like my play, I have flat called in that situation before when I strongly suspected the nut flush, but at the same time he will bet a lot of hands I can beat on the river (straight, smaller flush, etc) and I wanted to extract max value from those hands.

--turnipmonster

[Voltron87]

My thought on the minraise is that this probably isn't the best time to try it since you aren't 100% on where you stand in the hand.

The call on the end comes down to the player making the raise. In the NYC 5/5 game I play there are a handful of players I am calling (the all in) almost all the time and a handful of players that I really hate calling here.

[scdavis0]

Your reasoning does not makes sense. In order for this play to work he must re-raise all-in everytime he has the nut flush. He may figure you for two pair and raise you a smaller amount that he thinks you can call. So if you are going to call all the same when he gives you 3-1 on a re-raise, might as well raise the river more to get more value when he has a smaller flush. This also makes more sense when you know he won't stick all his chips in without the nut flush here.

[elnino12]

You've got the 3rd best flush possible. Just flat call. Villain probably has the A high flush, because he most likely would've bet the turn with a straight flush draw and position (7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif). I'm guessing he also would not play 4/7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif either (would he?), but it's certainly another possibility. So the only real hand that you beat here is a weak flush without the J /images/graemlins/spade.gif, since villain would have bet this somewhere along the way. Raising here only lets a better hand push, and a weaker flush get away from their hand. Here's a tricky one...did you ever consider folding to the river bet?

-Nino

[turnipmonster]

I would never fold to the river bet, and I think it's a horrible play given that my opponent will bet all sorts of hands I can beat in this spot (two pair, smaller flush, straight, top pair, etc). also I have the 4th nuts, not the 3rd. my default is to raise here, and I think flat calling is missing out on a ton of value here.

I am very surprised at the amount of people that are worried about the nut flush when he bets in this spot, my opponent can bet lots of hands here. when he reraised, then I was worried about the nut flush.

I folded, he was nice about it and showed me 4s7s.

--turnipmonster

[CCass]

Is it possible that he has Q /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif? If I limped with QJ, I would have bet the flop.

Would he limp with low suited connectors (34 or 45 of /images/graemlins/spade.gif)?

It is hard to put him on any hand that would make a straight (other than a suited 34).

If I did the math correctly, you are getting 2:1 to call. I probably make the crying call, but I don't play in 5/5 games. If I thought he was a pretty good player, I might fold.

As for the minraise, I think you are asking for someone to come over the top. I would have raised to 270, which makes the rest of the hand play much easier (you are pot committed when he does push).

[elnino12]

I think your play seems like it has a lot more to do with your read on the villain, rather than making this just a simple hand analysis. The raise lets you know where you stand, but I'm not sure that the river is the best place to minraise for info. I realize that you give up lots of value by NEVER raising here, but I honestly thought you were beat, so I advocated flat calling (and even a possible fold). But obviously you'd been playing with this guy and decided that a raise was mandatory, so who knows.

-Nino

[turnipmonster]

even if I had no read at all on the villian and had never played with him before, I would never fold, sometimes raise and sometimes flat call.

--turnipmonster

[Matt Flynn]

turnip,

raise the most you think he would call with any flush. probably a good amount more than you raised, but not a pot-size raise. mentally i'd start with half the pot and adjust from there. remember he might put you on a stone bluff, but you have to bet enough to make him think that.

key here is the flush is runner-runner. all sorts of extra loose betting happens with those. i'd still lay down to the reraise if he looked comfortable. if you're that worried about getting pot stuck just call the river bet.

matt

[elnino12]

Am I an idiot for thinking that turnip is beat? Or are ya'll just saying that this is too good of a hand to get away from cheaply? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

-Nino

[Post-Oak]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I an idiot for thinking that turnip is beat? Or are ya'll just saying that this is too good of a hand to get away from cheaply? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

-Nino

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends what you mean. If you mean that folding on the river to the pot sized bet is the proper play, then yes, you are an idiot /images/graemlins/wink.gif

You are getting two to on your money to make that call. You have the second highest flush. Only the nut flush or a straight flush beats you. You can not fold to the pot sized bet on the river. There are just too many hands you have beat, and you only need to win the showdown 33% of the time to break even.

[elnino12]

Yea, I am all for calling here. I just think that he's beat and that there's no need to raise, but then that comment got a little flamed as well...Oh well--I think we're done with this one /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[turnipmonster]

what is it about the action that makes you think I'm beat? do you honestly think my opponent will only bet the nut flush on the river, and he will never call a turn bet with any other hand? it's an unraised pot, he could have a wide range of hands here. do you really think the guy calls my bet on the turn, makes a straight/2 pair/small flush and then checks the river when a scare card hits?

saying I am beat when my opponent bets the pot on the river is just ridiculous, for almost any opponent.

--turnipmonster

[Post-Oak]

Elnino,

I also advocated flat calling the river. I think there were others who did as well. You are not alone, except where you ask if he considered folding to the initial river bet.

I don't think anyone is saying that flat calling is a bad play per se. Some just feel that raising is more +EV.

[elnino12]

"What is it about the action that makes you think I'm beat?"

Villain called a potsized bet out of position with one card to come, and then bet the pot when a non-board-pairing spade hit on 5th. That seems like a pretty stong play, especially from a passive opponent. FWIW, I wasn't saying that you ARE beat, I just thought it was very likely that you were holding the second best hand, thus warranting a flat call.

Best Regards,
-Nino

[elnino12]

Ok...I think it's become a 'preaching to the choir' situation at this point. My fingers are starting to hurt from all this typing /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[coltrane]

turnip,

as to what I think of the river min-raise, check out this post I made to Matt two days ago (particularly the second-half of the first paragraph)....

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1663248&Main=1656116#Post 1663240


as for your particular hand, hmmm.....I may have raised more on the river - although then you'd pretty much be pot-stuck for his reraise.....so I guess by that logic, miniraising based on his stack size with the intention of folding to a reraise could make sense depending on the player.....I probably would've called.....and of course his pot-sized bet on the river can mean way more hands than just a flush.....

[Huskiez]

[ QUOTE ]
also I have the 4th nuts, not the 3rd.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just a small side note -- you have 3rd nuts.

If we don't differentiate between different Axs because they're exclusive, then we should not differentiate between 79s and 74s for the same reason.