10+1 hand, some advice please..

[kem]

I'm new to SNG's, so any help is appreciated.

3-handed. SB has ~1800 in chips, I have the same, UTG has ~4400. UTG has played a wide variety of hands, pretty loose, fairly aggressive. Blinds are 200-400.

UTG raises pre-flop to 800, SB folds. I'm looking at A/images/graemlins/spade.gif6/images/graemlins/spade.gif. I debate folding, calling, and pushing. Since I'm first to act on the flop, I decide to call the 400 pre-flop raise with the intention of pushing immediately on about 98% of flops.

Flop comes A9x, one spade, I push my last 800 into the 1800 pot.

So my question is: pre-flop, should I have pushed or folded instead of just calling? UTG was pretty loose, so his raise could mean any two face cards, any pocket pair, any two cards > 8 that are suited, probably even A2-5s, etc.

I also realized afterwards that calling pre-flop with the intention of pushing probably works a lot better when you're at least betting the size of the pot.. here I'm giving him ~3:1 to call me, so he can call with a lot of hands.. What do people think?

[mungpo]

You should be pushing this rather than calling.

[kem]

[ QUOTE ]
You should be pushing this rather than calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you expand a little on this? Is pushing much better than a call+auto-push-on-flop?

[etgryphon]

Well with 3.5xBB after posting the BB. Axs is about the best hand you are going to see because you can only make it through about 6 more hands. You have get all the money in with the guy. If you want to WIN the SnG, you should push PF. If you want a chance to slip into 2nd then you should fold. But, your chip stack is so small that it really doesn't matter if to call PF and push on the flop. It just that if it didn't some Axx then you would be in a tough place to call any bet by the UTG and if you are going to play you need the other two cards to come.

-Gryph

[Slim Pickens]

I think you are correct that you don't have enough chips to call, then push, but at the 10's it wouldn't surprise me in least if it were to work. As for "push or fold," I think this depends on what you think the other small stack will do in the next 5 hands. If you are sure he'll push a worse hand than this (or fairly sure he'll push a much worse hand), fold, otherwise, push.

[kem]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you are correct that you don't have enough chips to call, then push, but at the 10's it wouldn't surprise me in least if it were to work. As for "push or fold," I think this depends on what you think the other small stack will do in the next 5 hands. If you are sure he'll push a worse hand than this (or fairly sure he'll push a much worse hand), fold, otherwise, push.

[/ QUOTE ]

At the time I was thinking my call+push could bluff him out of the pot, but in hindsight I should have pushed pre-flop.

Villian immediately called my push and flipped over ATo. No help on the turn or river, finished 3rd.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you expand a little on this? Is pushing much better than a call+auto-push-on-flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are the SB, so the BB is still to act. What if he pushes behind you? If you push, the BB may well lay down hands that he would've pushed with otherwise. Several of these hands are likely better than A6.

If the big stack is min-raising a lot, I like the pre-flop push also. I want to put a stop to his annoying min raising. I'd be looking to come over the top ASAP and this seems like a good place to do it. The stop-and-go really doesn't send the message quite as effectively.

[kem]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can you expand a little on this? Is pushing much better than a call+auto-push-on-flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are the SB, so the BB is still to act. What if he pushes behind you? If you push, the BB may well lay down hands that he would've pushed with otherwise. Several of these hands are likely better than A6.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am the BB. The SB folded.

[etgryphon]

OP is the BB...

-Gryph

[Phil Van Sexton]

So you are saying that I have to actually read the post before responding "push"? I'll try that in the future.

[stillnotking]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm new to SNG's, so any help is appreciated.

3-handed. SB has ~1800 in chips, I have the same, UTG has ~4400. UTG has played a wide variety of hands, pretty loose, fairly aggressive. Blinds are 200-400.

UTG raises pre-flop to 800, SB folds. I'm looking at A/images/graemlins/spade.gif6/images/graemlins/spade.gif. I debate folding, calling, and pushing. Since I'm first to act on the flop, I decide to call the 400 pre-flop raise with the intention of pushing immediately on about 98% of flops.

Flop comes A9x, one spade, I push my last 800 into the 1800 pot.

So my question is: pre-flop, should I have pushed or folded instead of just calling? UTG was pretty loose, so his raise could mean any two face cards, any pocket pair, any two cards > 8 that are suited, probably even A2-5s, etc.

I also realized afterwards that calling pre-flop with the intention of pushing probably works a lot better when you're at least betting the size of the pot.. here I'm giving him ~3:1 to call me, so he can call with a lot of hands.. What do people think?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a good hand or a good chip position to try a stop-and-go. It's push or fold preflop. Pushing an A6 against a preflop raiser, even a fairly loose one, is iffy IMO. I would be tempted to fold this hand.

[Pokerscott]

[ QUOTE ]
Well with 3.5xBB after posting the BB. Axs is about the best hand you are going to see because you can only make it through about 6 more hands. You have get all the money in with the guy. If you want to WIN the SnG, you should push PF. If you want a chance to slip into 2nd then you should fold. But, your chip stack is so small that it really doesn't matter if to call PF and push on the flop. It just that if it didn't some Axx then you would be in a tough place to call any bet by the UTG and if you are going to play you need the other two cards to come.

-Gryph

[/ QUOTE ]


With 6 hands to see, your typical best hand to see is something like KQo or ATo. Check out this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=1575782 &Forum=f22&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=15757 82&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=25294&daterange= 1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&body prev=#Post1575782) link for more info on this type of analysis.

Plusses to push:
-you have chips in the pot
-your opponent has been pretty loose
-you have a decent hand

Minuses:
-you are not first in the pot
-you are dominated in many many situations.
-you are risking your tournament life first when another shortstack is around (waiting gives you an extra chance to come in second--namely the other shorty going out first).

On the whole I would probably wait to be first in the pot next time.

Pokerscott

[BigDave]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you expand a little on this? Is pushing much better than a call+auto-push-on-flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

If your intentions are to put all your chips in 98% of the time, why let your opponent see the flop for free?

Do you think he/she will fold more often to the all-in bet after the flop vs the all-in raise pre flop?

[kem]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can you expand a little on this? Is pushing much better than a call+auto-push-on-flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

If your intentions are to put all your chips in 98% of the time, why let your opponent see the flop for free?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I think there's a good chance he misses the flop and folds to my bet.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think he/she will fold more often to the all-in bet after the flop vs the all-in raise pre flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on his hand. Let's say he has AJs and the flop comes 977r and I (as BB) go all-in. I think he's more likely to fold here than he would fold pre-flop if I went all-in.. So I guess unless he's holding a strong pocket pair, I am looking for a fold if he misses the flop. That was my pseudo-logic at least..

[stillnotking]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm new to SNG's, so any help is appreciated.

3-handed. SB has ~1800 in chips, I have the same, UTG has ~4400. UTG has played a wide variety of hands, pretty loose, fairly aggressive. Blinds are 200-400.

UTG raises pre-flop to 800, SB folds. I'm looking at A/images/graemlins/spade.gif6/images/graemlins/spade.gif. I debate folding, calling, and pushing. Since I'm first to act on the flop, I decide to call the 400 pre-flop raise with the intention of pushing immediately on about 98% of flops.

Flop comes A9x, one spade, I push my last 800 into the 1800 pot.

So my question is: pre-flop, should I have pushed or folded instead of just calling? UTG was pretty loose, so his raise could mean any two face cards, any pocket pair, any two cards > 8 that are suited, probably even A2-5s, etc.

I also realized afterwards that calling pre-flop with the intention of pushing probably works a lot better when you're at least betting the size of the pot.. here I'm giving him ~3:1 to call me, so he can call with a lot of hands.. What do people think?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a good hand or a good chip position to try a stop-and-go. It's push or fold preflop. Pushing an A6 against a preflop raiser, even a fairly loose one, is iffy IMO. I would be tempted to fold this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

To quantify this: let's put the raiser on any ace, any pair, KQ, KJ, KT, or QJ. A6s has 45% equity HU against this range of hands. Not great IMO. Even if he is raising with something like 98s, it doesn't help your equity much. I like a fold here. In fact, you would probably be better off pushing the next hand with any 2 if the button folds than calling here.

[ChrisV]

If you don't know already, this play is called a stop-and-go. I don't mind the play here, I think it's slightly better than just pushing preflop.

When Axx flops though, you must check. You could easily have your opponent drawing virtually dead with a hand like KT. You have to give him a chance to bluff at the pot.

[etgryphon]

Hey ChrisV,

Why is going for the stop n go here slightly better than going for PF Allin? I trust your judgement, but it doesn't seem like there is an advantage at all. I can only think of a slight advantage in that if you push PF then you *might* get a A7 to laydown, but thats like a 1/100 chance. If you go for the SnG you can chicken out if the flop doesn't help.

-Gryph

[morgan180]

[ QUOTE ]

When Axx flops though, you must check. You could easily have your opponent drawing virtually dead with a hand like KT. You have to give him a chance to bluff at the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, i think this is a results-oriented discussion and that sometimes you make a decent play and you're just beat - it's part of the game.

If you get in the habit of folding your 400 dollar blind to a mini-raise then you'll be in a lot of trouble every time you get to the bubble. I think the call is fine here, but I think you have to check your A high heads up. I want my opponent to think I missed this and was holding something like a big K.

JMHO

[stillnotking]

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't know already, this play is called a stop-and-go. I don't mind the play here, I think it's slightly better than just pushing preflop.

When Axx flops though, you must check. You could easily have your opponent drawing virtually dead with a hand like KT. You have to give him a chance to bluff at the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if no A flops, you push? What can the big stack possibly lay down when he is calling 800 for a 2600 pot? This is a terrible spot for a stop-and-go unless big stack is a moron.