Help, I'm leaking! [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

kurosh

02-02-2005, 08:45 PM

These hands were back to back. Villain is 41VP/7PFR/.8AF. I would normally raise the flop or turn on hand 1 but I was trying a new line.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $15.
2 folds, Hero raises, 4 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (5.66 SB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.83 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (5.83 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7.83 BB

Results in white below: 
BB has Ah Jh (high card, ace).
Hero has Td Ac (high card, ace).
Outcome: BB wins 7.83 BB. 

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises, 4 folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, BB folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9 BB

Results in white below: 
No showdown. SB wins 9 BB.

cpk

02-02-2005, 09:50 PM

#1: Raise turn or fold flop.
#2: What else can you do?

Don't post results and you'll get better answers.

kurosh

02-03-2005, 02:18 AM

Agh, why does no one ever answer my posts? Are they standard/minor mistakes and that's why? I still am completely lost when a blind comes out betting and I have overcards. Also see this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1649083&page=1&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

scrub

02-03-2005, 02:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Agh, why does no one ever answer my posts? Are they standard/minor mistakes and that's why? I still am completely lost when a blind comes out betting and I have overcards. Also see this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1649083&page=1&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you should be posting them in Small Stakes.

scrub

kurosh

02-03-2005, 02:38 AM

There's a ton of 15/30 posts in this forum not posted by me and I haven't seen a single person tell them to go to small stakes.

astroglide

02-03-2005, 03:09 AM

it's happened a lot

kurosh

02-03-2005, 03:37 AM

I'd actually say the majority of hands posted here are 15/30 party. Just from looking at the topics of the first 50 posts here, all of these are related to 15/30 party.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1662156&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1658098&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1656456&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1658441&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1655908&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1658467&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1646057&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1654507&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1654915&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1654784&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1652905&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1647496&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1647485&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1647606&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1

Not a single one mentions the small stakes forum.

scrub

02-03-2005, 04:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
There's a ton of 15/30 posts in this forum not posted by me and I haven't seen a single person tell them to go to small stakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I can see why so many people are waiting in line to help you.

scrub

Brom

02-03-2005, 07:12 AM

OK I'll take a shot at giving some advice here FWIW.

1st hand. I'm not a fan of playing weak aces at all and I like a fold PF with that hand especially in your position. The fact that it is 8-handed makes this really close however. Again, I know I don't like to play them (a personal thing) but you did, and you raised it more importantly which is good.
Postlop, you need a raise on any of the streets at least. BB seems to be a calling station based on the numbers given and there may be a good chace that he calls you down with worse aces if he had a hand like A7s or whatnot. What were you trying to accomplish by just calling him down? If you gave him credit for a hand, either fold or try a raise to get him off of it/get a free card (raise on flop becuase it's cheaper). If you think hes bluffing, raise the turn becuase he still has outs to beat you remember and you need him out (assuming no cards are in common between your hands). If he's on a draw at least make it expensive for him (raise flop and/or turn). And if you want to rope a dope and call down a weaker ace he may be betting keep in mind you only beat A 5-8 which is a pretty narrow range to support this play with.
You basically didn't give him any reason to get out and unfortunately he had you outkicked in this case. A raise makes it easier to read his hand based on his reaction and lets you take control more often.

Hand 2. Your play PF and flop look fine to me. You raised the flop as a semi-bluff? They both called though, so I'd have to give credit to at least one of them for a made hand of some sort as there are not enough draws to go around. I'd say take your free card on the turn as you likely need to improve to win. You also stand a chance of picking off an induced river bluff if the missed draw bets into you. If by the river all you have is AK high then all your hand is good for is catching a bluff IMO.
Bettting the turn with the plan of folding to a checkraise is a pretty decent plan too, but tricky players are likely to raise this turn way too much IMO to make it a standard play in the described situation.

Also consider that BB had your number? If that's the case tighten up a bit PF and switch it up a bit post flop. Hope you can pull something useful out of my post.

kurosh

02-03-2005, 11:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There's a ton of 15/30 posts in this forum not posted by me and I haven't seen a single person tell them to go to small stakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I can see why so many people are waiting in line to help you.

scrub

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there something wrong? I don't notice anything demeaning or derogatory in my post but that could just be because I wrote it. What I said is completely true and I don't see why I should be the exception in being told to go down to small stakes when a lot of other people are doing the same as me.

kurosh

02-03-2005, 11:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
OK I'll take a shot at giving some advice here FWIW.

1st hand. I'm not a fan of playing weak aces at all and I like a fold PF with that hand especially in your position. The fact that it is 8-handed makes this really close however. Again, I know I don't like to play them (a personal thing) but you did, and you raised it more importantly which is good.
Postlop, you need a raise on any of the streets at least. BB seems to be a calling station based on the numbers given and there may be a good chace that he calls you down with worse aces if he had a hand like A7s or whatnot. What were you trying to accomplish by just calling him down? If you gave him credit for a hand, either fold or try a raise to get him off of it/get a free card (raise on flop becuase it's cheaper). If you think hes bluffing, raise the turn becuase he still has outs to beat you remember and you need him out (assuming no cards are in common between your hands). If he's on a draw at least make it expensive for him (raise flop and/or turn). And if you want to rope a dope and call down a weaker ace he may be betting keep in mind you only beat A 5-8 which is a pretty narrow range to support this play with.
You basically didn't give him any reason to get out and unfortunately he had you outkicked in this case. A raise makes it easier to read his hand based on his reaction and lets you take control more often.

Hand 2. Your play PF and flop look fine to me. You raised the flop as a semi-bluff? They both called though, so I'd have to give credit to at least one of them for a made hand of some sort as there are not enough draws to go around. I'd say take your free card on the turn as you likely need to improve to win. You also stand a chance of picking off an induced river bluff if the missed draw bets into you. If by the river all you have is AK high then all your hand is good for is catching a bluff IMO.
Bettting the turn with the plan of folding to a checkraise is a pretty decent plan too, but tricky players are likely to raise this turn way too much IMO to make it a standard play in the described situation.

Also consider that BB had your number? If that's the case tighten up a bit PF and switch it up a bit post flop. Hope you can pull something useful out of my post.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, thank you, your advice has been useful. I've been 3-bet a lot on the flop in that situation by a wide range of hands, many of which are bluffs, which is why I didn't raise. A raise on the turn seems to be good but in this case, the guy would've called and I don't think I would've or should've followed it through with a river bluff.

scrub

02-03-2005, 11:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There's a ton of 15/30 posts in this forum not posted by me and I haven't seen a single person tell them to go to small stakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I can see why so many people are waiting in line to help you.

scrub

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there something wrong? I don't notice anything demeaning or derogatory in my post but that could just be because I wrote it. What I said is completely true and I don't see why I should be the exception in being told to go down to small stakes when a lot of other people are doing the same as me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was telling you why most posters in this forum were ignoring your posts, and letting you know that if you posted them in Small Stakes, you'd get more responses. If you don't want to listen, that's fine.

scrub

Brom

02-03-2005, 08:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Yes, thank you, your advice has been useful. I've been 3-bet a lot on the flop in that situation by a wide range of hands, many of which are bluffs, which is why I didn't raise. A raise on the turn seems to be good but in this case, the guy would've called and I don't think I would've or should've followed it through with a river bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that in this case you probably should have raised the turn (best choice street for a raise) and that following through would more than likely not be a good idea in this situation. But that comes after knowing his cards, I was apeaking in the more general sense of the situation.

As for the 3-bet flop situation, here's my take. You have to know who is capable of pulling that move off with either a bluff or a hand. I guess you had a read on this opponent that he'd do it with a real hand? If you know he's more likely to do it as a bluff or a feeler type move then don't be too afraid of it and even consider capping it (not with just ace high like you had, but with a TPTK maybe). And obviously if he only does it with the goods at least you can fold to that raise in good conscious.