How much harder is $30+3 vs $20+2 vs $10+1 vs $5+.50.

[FirstClash]

I just think I must be missing something because experienced players think 40% is a good average for placing in single table tournaments. I'm doing much better than that at the moment in $5+0.50s... should I expect my average to come down much if I were to play higher small money buy-ins like the 10s, 20s, and 30s? I could understand why I'm doing so well if there is a trend that will bring you gradually down to a 30-35% ratio as the entry fees go up...

So maybe I would place 60% at $5 games, 50% at $10 games, 40% at $20, and 30% at $50 games because the players are getting better on average as the money goes up...

So, I'm asking... do people find $10 games to be that much harder than $5 games? how much difference is there between buy-ins and the caliber of player?

I still don't think I'm that great of a player... on a scale of bad, decent, good, very good, excellent... I put myself on a decent. And probably a lot of experienced players would put me worse than that. Am I experiencing beginners luck?

[Baked67]

How many have you played?

[ColdestCall]

Not having played either, I cannot imagine there is any significant difference between the 5s and 10s in skill. I think the rake is better in the 10s if I'm not mistaken. The 20s are a bit harder than the 10s, the 30s a bit harder still, the 50s a bit harder than that, and so on. Search for a post by Irieguy explaining why this is (from a couple of weeks or so ago).

Unless money is a real big issue, dont bother with the 5's. If you are beating the 10s and feel like you want to move up, and the money still isn't an issue, go ahead and try the 20s, and then the 30s, etc. When you encounter a big negative swing, step down a level and play there until you are confident you are beating the game, and have built your BR back up, then take a crack at the next level again.

BTW, you haven't played nearly enough of these to know what your ITM % will be long term, but I wouldn't necessarily let that stop you. I started at the 50s and stayed there. I wouldn't recommend that you do that, because based on your posts I don't currently think you can beat the 50s, but there is no reason that you won't eventually. Give the 20s a try if losing a couple hundred wont bother you. You may very well find that you win.

As always, good luck!

[lorinda]

Where are you playing 5.50s?

Most people are referring to Party when they quote 40-45% at the very bottom limits.
I have no doubts that 50% is possible at some other sites.

Have you had your first run of 10 in a row out of the money yet? If not you're probably experiencing a degree of beginners luck.

Lori

[FirstClash]

So far just 11 that I've tracked... I had taken a break for a few months after I earned my player points and got my bonuses which included $75 for taking first in a free-roll. I wanted to gear up and study before I risked my free money. So far I haven't had to touch my deposited money and my profits are starting to grow.

Losing streaks of 3 start to worry me. Currently I'm on a winning streak of 3.

I've been studying a lot since I started playing again so I think my game is improving a little each day, but here's how I've placed my last 11 games:

7,3,1,9,3,6,7,5,2,1,3

I think I tilted on the one I placed 9, I was in a bad mood after talking to someone on the phone. I played the last one yesterday and was playing a lot tighter than I think I should have been considering my opponents. But maybe not. Still trying to figure that one out.

I'm actually starting to record my 1st hand # so I can go back and review my plays and critique myself.

[ColdestCall]

Friendly word of advice - you are going to get seriously flamed if you continue to post ITM and ROI numbers based on 11 tournaments.

[FirstClash]

A couple hundred would bankrupt me into my deposit, which I'm trying to avoid.

My plan is/was to play the $5s and see if I can build to a couple hundred profit, then move to the $10s and see how I fair there when I can risk a little more.

My budget is really tight... and my hopes are to eventually get a couple hundred extra per month to help pay the bills and maybe take my wife out to dinner once in a while.

[FirstClash]

I play on PokerRoom.com. I've never tried any of the other sites yet... If I can build up enough money on PokerRoom I can use some of it to play on other sites as well.

The buy in used to be $5+1 but they recently reduced the $1 entry fee to $0.50

[FirstClash]

Probably. But should I expect it ITM to come down or do you think it's possible to maintain or improve it at the $5 games?

[rachelwxm]

I refer a friend of mine to party poker who does not know how to play NL game and after 11 games of $5 and $10 buyin, he has 50% ROI. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[FirstClash]

Maybe we just confuse people who know how to play because they aren't sure what we're going to do next? lol.

[Rasputin]

[ QUOTE ]
Most people are referring to Party when they quote 40-45% at the very bottom limits.
I have no doubts that 50% is possible at some other sites.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you think are decent numbers for the low buy ins at Stars? Regular and turbo?

Would the deeper stacks mean you should finish in the money more, or less?

[OrcaDK]

Fine plan, build your bankroll and confidence in the 5's. But as already said, don't even consider thinking about your ITM or ROI before you have _at least_ 50-100 tourneys.

Loosing streak of 3 worries you? In that case i suggest you stop playing SnG's, maybe stop playing poker at all. You're going to get loosing streaks of 15+ tourneys if you're playing long enough, it's called variance, nobody escapes.

[rachelwxm]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe we just confuse people who know how to play because they aren't sure what we're going to do next? lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's always good to start well and you seems to find the right place (this forum) to start your SNG experience. There is nothing wrong to think beyond your level from time to time. Everyone in this forum dreams of killing those $200 games from time to time. /images/graemlins/cool.gifJust be ready once inevitable bad swings comes. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[FirstClash]

I believe there are ways to limit the effects of variance... maybe I'm wrong. But I'm not much into gamblin with negative expected return. If I have a positive expected return, I don't feel like it's gambling. lol

[mungpo]

Just wait long enough. The variance monster has a large appetite and doesn't like to share.

[stillnotking]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe there are ways to limit the effects of variance... maybe I'm wrong. But I'm not much into gamblin with negative expected return. If I have a positive expected return, I don't feel like it's gambling. lol

[/ QUOTE ]

Expected value is a wonderful abstraction, but believe me, you are still gambling. And with this small a sample size you have no idea if you are actually a winning player. My ROI on the $10+1s started out somewhere around 40% for the first 50 tournaments, and I thought "wow, these games are great!" Since then it has steadily dropped and is now somewhere around 20%, which is probably realistic. I'm a decent player but not nearly as good as many around here.

When you've played 200 SNGs at the same level, you can start analyzing stats. Anything before that is an exercise in futility.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
If I have a positive expected return, I don't feel like it's gambling. lol

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you tacked on a 'lol' this could easily be you making a joke b/c you already ascribe to what I've written above. If this is the case, then please disregard the following:

You can feel any way you would like. However, playing poker most certainly IS gambling. In addition, approaching poker like it's not gambling can be quite hazzardous for both psychological and decision making reasons.

If you 'feel' poker isn't gambling b/c you associate negative connotations with the word 'gambling' (yet want gambling to be ethically ok choice) then I suggest you redefine the ethical value of gambling within your ethics sooner rather than later. Otherwise you will end up feeling guilty and/or view poker as not gambling.

In case no one gave you a proper welcome (seeing as though you only have a couple dozen posts):

Welcome to the forum!

Yugoslav

SNG Forum Caution: Please remember to wear your 'jacket of thick skin' at all times! It is invaluable here and on 2+2 in general.

Also, use the search function liberally and often for content in this forum. Or use google to search 2+2. Try to keep in mind that part of the satisfaction in gaining knowledge is the struggle (the damn search function) to find it.

[Mr_J]

I think he meant to say he feels like he's investing. Investing is still gambling though (just with a perceived advantage).

[lorinda]

40% is still a decent number, I'm not sure what it would top out at, but pretty sure it's over 50%.

Would the deeper stacks mean you should finish in the money more, or less?

More.

If you take it to the extreme and give everyone 1BB, the initial stages would be 100% luck and even heads up at the end would be nearly 100% luck.
Deeper stacks allow more poker to be played.

However, it is not the full story. Short stacks lead to quicker turnover so although your win per tournament would be lower, your hourly rate would be potentially better.

When selecting where to play, these factors will be different for different people.
My win rate at UB was so ridiculous that I actually had a higher hourly rate in the $11s at UB than at Party, despite the tourneys taking forever, but now I'm in the $33s, Party appears to be the way forward.

Lori