More on HOF - Why Not Blyleven?

[Q8offsuit]

Seems like the HOF voters neglect all-time great pitchers (esp. closers) and quickly usher in borderline position players.

Bert Blyleven, for example? Why the hell is he not in the HOF?

Retired THIRD on career strikeouts list with 3,701. Currently fifth.

Only thirteen wins short of 300.

242 Complete Games. 60 shutouts.

Pitched a no-hitter.

Won 2 World Series with a 2-1 record, 2.35 ERA.
3-0 in the LCS.

Negatives: Only won 20 games once (20-17 in 1973). Lost 250 games.
All the strikeouts came at the expense of a lot of HRs, especially near the end of his career.

3.31 Lifetime ERA is a little high, but compares favorably with Carlton (3.22), Ryan (3.19), Early Wynn (3.54), and some other HOF pitchers.

Very, very solid pitcher who is not in and does not seem to be close. I say 3,700 strikouts gets you in. Thoughts?

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

GET HIM IN THERE!

[dabluebery]

I think the credibility in the strikeouts is meaningless, but that doesn't make Blylven a bad candidate. On the contrary, I think he's perhaps the most glaring example of a pitcher who should be in the Hall of Fame, but is not, for whatever reason.

Rob

[M2d]

he was never considered the best at his position during his time in the league.
I don't necessarily think that Blylevin doesn't belong wrt other inductees, but I do think that a lot of people in there don't belong.

[RogerZBT]

Blyleven comes down to 'good, not great.' His era is good, not great. He led the league in losses once, but never in wins. He's third in K's, but again, never led the league. But probably the biggest knock is he was basically a .500 pitcher, with a 287-250 record. That's an average 13-11 over his 22 years. Yes, the team he played for had something to do with that, but it's still a very hard sell for the voters.

[Paluka]

Blyleven is one of those players who I think should clearly be in compared to those already in, but I would prefer the HOF would have never put many of those players in the first place.

[jesusarenque]

Blylevin should defnitely be in. His exclusion is one of the biggest oversights, with Ron Santo being the biggest. It is a joke Santo is not in.

[dabluebery]

Black Ink: Pitching - 16 (128) (Average HOFer ~ 40)
Gray Ink: Pitching - 239 (23) (Average HOFer ~ 185)
HOF Standards: Pitching - 50.0 (36) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Pitching - 120.5 (67) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Overall Rank in parentheses.

Act.- Denotes rank among active players, Car. - Denotes career rank
Click on the Car, Act or Year to see the career, active, or league leaderboard.


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Jim Kaat (854)
Early Wynn (844) *
Phil Niekro (844) *
Steve Carlton (840) *

Just based on a quick look at the numbers, it's pretty clear to me that he belongs in the hall of fame. These scores are from baseball-reference.com.

Agree, it's a separate argument that maybe many of these pitchers don't belong.... but in comparison to pitchers already there.... he's better than a lot of them. Read Rob Neyer.

[RogerZBT]

What site are you getting those numbers from?

[MrFeelNothin]

I dont think it makes a lot of sense to compare ERAs of pitchers who pitched in completely different eras. But I digress......what Blylevens case comes down to is the fact that he was never at any point in his career one of the best pitchers in the league. Also, pretty much any impressive stat he has is due only to his incredibly long career. As pointed out he only won 20 games once, lost 10 or more 15 times, gave up 430 HRs and he never came close to winning a Cy Young.

I'm a lifelong Twins fan and I do have to say that if he was a good guy and an ambassador for the sport my answer might change. But as it is he is a complete [censored] and can never resist plugging his HOF credentials into every Twins broadcast. You're not fooling us Bert, you were good but nothing special.

For anyone that disagrees, go to mlb.com and go to stats-historical. Pull up the year by year list of leaders in various pitching categories. See how often you can spot Berts name.

[MrFeelNothin]

Say what???

Could you please give some explanation as to what goes into these rankings. Black ink? Gray Ink? Huh?

[Jack of Arcades]

Crossposted from the HOF Thread

[ QUOTE ]
A nice article on Bert's HOF worthiness (http://www.all-baseball.com/richbeat/archives/011878.html)

What do the following people have in common?

Nolan Ryan, Phil Niekro, Juan Marichal, Robin Roberts, Don Sutton
Answers in white!<font color="white">
A1: They all are in the Hall of Fame
A2: None of them have a Cy Young. </font>

Here's another!

Warren Spahn, Don Sutton, Robin Roberts, Phil Niekro, Fergie Jenkins
Answers in white!
<font color="white">A1: All Allowed more home runs than Blyleven
A2: All are in the Hall of Fame</font>


[/ QUOTE ]

[Jack of Arcades]

Explanation here (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#black_ink)

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
what Blylevens case comes down to is the fact that he was never at any point in his career one of the best pitchers in the league.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bullsh[/i]it. 7 times top 5 in ERA. 10 times top 5 in K/9. 3 times top 5 in BB/9. Twice top 5 in wins. 6 times top 5 in IP, including 2 titles. 7 top 5 in shutouts, including 3 titles (9th all time).

[ QUOTE ]
Also, pretty much any impressive stat he has is due only to his incredibly long career.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've already pointed out how this is false, as he dominated his league plenty of times.

[ QUOTE ]
As pointed out he only won 20 games once, lost 10 or more 15 times

[/ QUOTE ]

Bert Blyleven got some of the worst run support in the history of the league. In his 15 losses in 1971, his team scored 18 runs.

[ QUOTE ]
gave up 430 HRs

[/ QUOTE ]

Robin Roberts, Fergie Jenkins, Phiel Niekro, Don Sutton, and Warren Spahn gave up more.

[ QUOTE ]
and he never came close to winning a Cy Young.

[/ QUOTE ]

4 top ten finishes including 2 thirds. He clearly should've won in 73 but he came in seventh.

[ QUOTE ]
But as it is he is a complete [censored] and can never resist plugging his HOF credentials into every Twins broadcast.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would do the same if I were wrongly left out of the Hall.

[ QUOTE ]
For anyone that disagrees, go to mlb.com and go to stats-historical. Pull up the year by year list of leaders in various pitching categories. See how often you can spot Berts name.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or you can go here (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/blylebe01.shtml) and scroll down.

[radek2166]

[ QUOTE ]
Very, very solid pitcher

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats all he was. I loved him when I was a kid. Used to get so excited to watch him pitch in Pittsburgh. He was solid and average thats about it.

[Jack of Arcades]

Maybe you should read the thread next time before posting.

[MrFeelNothin]

Im not trying to claim he didnt have a successful career, but none of those numbers suggest to me that he is hall-worthy. All-star only twice and never top two for Cy Young, and he certainly should not have won it in 73 with a 20-17 record on a .500 twins team. Solid pitcher, not dominating or hall-worthy.

The run-support question raises an interesting point. If the low run-support was true over his whole career and not just 1971 it seems to not make sense. He was on generally good or at least above .500 teams except for a few bad Cleveland teams in the mid 80s. So why would he have such problems with run support? Well I know that if I were one of his position players I would be less motivated to give him support than a pitcher who was more of a team player. Not that I wouldn't try, but there wouldnt be that extra motivation.

[Jack of Arcades]

It could simply be a fluke of statistics that his run support is so low, or that he played for teams that that had better pitching than offense.

I suggest you read the link I posted a few posts back, it's a very good article.

[Bill Murphy]

Jack Morris deserves to be in far more than Blyleven. Morris was clearly the best pitcher in the American League for 10-12 years; ERA, ShmERA. Blyleven was very, very good, and I feel he's right on the edge of belonging in the HOF, but Morris was truly dominant.

I agree that there're a bunch of guys in who don't belong, and also that the primary criteria should be performance vis. contemporaries. Morris was the best pitcher of the 80's.

And, oh yeah, he once pitched a pretty good game in October of '91. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Q8offsuit]

[ QUOTE ]
Jack Morris deserves to be in far more than Blyleven.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, no. Morris did pitch probably the 2nd best starting performance ever in a World Series, but his career numbers are sorely lacking.

254 wins, pretty good, but at least three seasons away from 300.

3.90 career E.R.A.? Very high, about a FULL RUN more than a lot of HOF pitchers of his generation and before.

2,478 strikouts, that's OVER 1,200 less than Blyleven.

Sorry, to say Morris is deserving and Blyleven is not is patently absurd.

[Jack of Arcades]

Jack Morris was a fine pitcher. He was just no Dennis Martinez. .. or Dave Steib.