ONLINE POKER RIGGED 2

ok, after a little research and thanks to a number of people i am closer to the truth but not yet satisfied. For the dude that wants to analyze my play, sure... but i don't play on paradise. Here's my email: fawq_u@hotmail.com. That's really my email, i'm not mocking you. You can use that too Tony. Paradise banned me for too many inquiries about the integrity of their game. I wasn't rude so i guess I got too close to something illegal. Maybe their game is fair but something else is illegal...i don't know. ANYWAY!


What i have discovered is that the 'rigging' is either non-existant or very sophisticated. The later is more likely. The hand histories will tell you that 4 flushes hit when they should, open ends hit when they should, you receive AA the correct amount of time, etc. Great! So it's somewhat fair. However, as Tony H says, this does not mean they couldn't have the big hands hit at the same time causing more action and therefore more rake. Let us all please admit it. Yes the play is faster so you will see what you would see in B&M much more, but there are too many bad beats and miracles. I think what needs to be done is to analyze the game to see if hands made on the riv match avg. and big hands hitting at the same time is avg. Yes, there are more loose players online which could account for this, but maybe not.


Also, you guys that think you are pro's always come with the attitude and blame our games. GIVE IT UP. Yes of course there's gonna be tons of weak players that aren't that good and blame the game. But what about the good players that lose? Are they just actually bad? Are they just extremely unlucky? This is possible. You guys never seem to explore any possibility except that we suck. I supported myself for a year on poker profit... Was i just really lucky? I guess that's possible. And the attitude. MS SUNSHINE and Tuco_Ramirez ...what do you prove by pointing out typo's and saying i'm a drunk. It's just childish. If you don't want to help leave it alone. All that does is raise suspicion when you avoid the topic at hand. I find it hard to believe that you guys could be good players with that attitude and childishness. And don't respond with comebacks, i don't care.


Another possibility we haven't really touched on is employees and bots playing, which could still be possible even if you are receiving the card combinations at the correct rate. Thought on this.....


Thanks to everyone that is helping. And i'm not proof reading for typo's and grammar. /images/smile.gif

You and all the other conspiracy theorists continue to miss the main points. I will briefly outline below:

1. If you suspect the sites are crooked


A. Do not play


B. If you must play


1 Do not complain


2 Do not write conspiracy posts


a. If you must write conspiracy posts


1) Please Keep them to one per day


2) Please be willing to be called a kook by the other non-complaining winning players.


2. If you think you have the power to "discover The Truth"


A. Why not keep it to yourself for an edge


B. Or better yet write a book and profit


3. If you believe somone here knows "The Truth"


A. Get a new belief system


B. Worship them and play net poker happily


Although everything you state in your 2nd paragraph above seems quite reasonable, just what does it matter, how are you going to prove anything beyond a statistical probability and what good will it do you if you are successful?


To summarize, winners do win, losers do lose the reasons matter very little as it will not change the past outcome.


Jimbo


To make you feel better even though you have no reason to believe me here is my disclaimer: I personally own either in whole or in part every internet gambling site accessible on the net so my opinions may be tainted with a bit of self interest in protecting my massive illicit profits.

(and then again I may have no affiliation whatsover with a single one of them) Please feel free to attempt to prove or disprove either in whole or in part any of my above disclaimer.

I'm not sure why I'm getting into this never-ending thread, but I will. First of all, internet poker is, for all practical purposes, unregulated. Therfore, I don't think it is beyond the realm of the believable that some sites may be doing something dishonest to enhance their earnings.


However, it seems that it is not in their best interests to do so. Go to Paradise and look at how many games they have going. Make an estimate of the rake they are collecting. Do you think they might be making a good profit without cheating? Why would they want to jeopordize that?


Assuming an internet site believed they could make extra money by dishonest means, how would they accomplish this?


One way would be by having some players "play for the house". These could be either people or "bots". These players could win for the house in one of two wayys: They could get more than their share of good hands. Or they could know every players hole cards and all of the board cards before the first bet was placed. One consequence of this would be lots of "bad beats". If the poker site doing this is not run by complete idiots, They would skim just enough from the game to act as a hidden rake, but not so much that nobody could win. This method would be difficult to detect, unless you had access to all players' hand histories and betting records. If the names of these hypothetical cheating "house players" were changed frequently, there would not be a big enough sample for any one player to be statisticly significant.


Do I think this is happening? No, but I don't think it's totally impossible, either.

This post is very interesting....


You and all the other conspiracy theorists continue to miss the main points. I will briefly outline below:

1. If you suspect the sites are crooked


A. Do not play

- maybe we want to play but we want to make sure it's fair by research.


B. If you must play


1 Do not complain

- Who's complaining? We are exploring possibiliities. If you read my post i am trying to be non bias. I am open to the fact that there may not be cheating. Besides, freedom of speech.


2 Do not write conspiracy posts


a. If you must write conspiracy posts


1) Please Keep them to one per day

- technically I have only posted 2, and not on the same day. Not that i would ever abide by your ridiculous rule. What are you afraid of? If there is no cheating than this will only help online poker. Are you afraid we might find something?


2) Please be willing to be called a kook by the other non-complaining winning players.

- i am willing to be called whatever... but i would like to get beyond that. We all know that there are players that lose because they suck so now that this point is made i would like to explore other possibilities.


2. If you think you have the power to "discover The Truth"


A. Why not keep it to yourself for an edge

- how is there an edge if there's cheating?


B. Or better yet write a book and profit


3. If you believe somone here knows "The Truth"

- obviously someone knows the truth, that's what i'm trying to find.


A. Get a new belief system


B. Worship them and play net poker happily

- allrighty then


Although everything you state in your 2nd paragraph above seems quite reasonable, just what does it matter, how are you going to prove anything beyond a statistical probability and what good will it do you if you are successful?

- don't you think it would be peace of mind to prove it's legit? And what do you mean what i say sounds reasonable? You know if it's rigged or not if you are who you say you are below!


To summarize, winners do win, losers do lose the reasons matter very little as it will not change the past outcome.

- the reasons matter a great deal if there's cheating! Of course no one can change the past, that is redundant. It's the future of online poker that is the question, whether some of us will continue to play.


Jimbo


To make you feel better even though you have no reason to believe me here is my disclaimer: I personally own either in whole or in part every internet gambling site accessible on the net so my opinions may be tainted with a bit of self interest in protecting my massive illicit profits.

(and then again I may have no affiliation whatsover with a single one of them) Please feel free to attempt to prove or disprove either in whole or in part any of my above disclaimer.


Once again, what do you fear if there is no cheating? You sound very defensive. This can only help you. This will either help the disbelievers to believe and therefore play, or righteously expose you.


P.S. That sounds like quite an improbable monopoly you have there tex. If you are who you say you are... why would i get banned from paradise for frequent civil questions about the integrity of the game?


Good day.

Alright Reggi,


Since you seem to be somewhat of a nice guy, I will refrain from the snide comments. Here is the problem: We have been over ALL of this way too many times. If you really want to get some feedback on all these "issues", go back in the archives and spend a couple of hours reading. Every question that you have asked so far has been beaten to death by the "consipricy theorists". The topic has become very boring to those of us that have been here through all of the discussion.


"I find it hard to believe that you guys could be good players with that attitude and childishness."


You might find it even harder to believe if you saw me play.


Tuco.

You wrote, "Yes of course there's gonna be tons of weak players that aren't that good and blame the game."


I don't think that is true. I've known thousands of bad players, and never heard any of them complain that they were being cheated. I've heard many people say how unlucky they are, but that's not the same thing.


For irony, the only two players who have ever told me they thought they were being cheated turned out to be right.


Tom

fair enough, and by your last post you NOW seem nice as well. I have actually read a lot of the archives, i guess i'm still not satisfied. You know, if you're sick of it you could just not take part.

Reggi,


Thanks for your polite response. Actually I am having difficulty ascertaining where I came off as defensive, actually apathetic about the entire subject is a much better description. I do take offense to being called Tex as I am an Okie but that may just be a regional misunderstanding and I will not consider it an intentional insult.


If you really and truly believe someone on this forum knows the truth about your questions AND is willing to share that information with you either pubically or privately this belief explains your persistence. It is somewhat naive to believe this will occur but I hope your curiosity is satisfied in some manner (mainly so there will be one less conspiracy theorist posting here) but also for your mental health and well being.


As far as fear I have made it clear, in previous threads, I neither fear online cheats nor mind their presence if they do land at my table. As for the sites themselves cheating that is so ludicrous as to deserve no response. On that subject someone is either going to believe it happens or not believe it. I choose the latter as you appear to choose the former. If I felt as you my solution would be to not risk online play for money as I suggested you consider.


I will give you a betting line here it is: 100 decillion to 1 that you will be able to prove or disprove your theories to my satisfaction (or probably to yours).


Allow me to speculate why you were banned from Paradise. If you raised these same points as in your threads here to me (if I were on their management team) as often as you seem willing to do here I would boot you as well. Haven't you ever been around a pain in the ass you would like to get rid of? Well they apparently have done just that and, well here you are on the forums doorstep asking the same old tired questions that have been cussed and discussed many times over with little or no agreement between the believers and non-believers. You my friend have little chance of success to convert anyones opinion that has read more than a few of the threads themselves.


Just in case you misunderstood my tongue in cheek disclaimer I have no affiliation with any online poker site other than as a participant (the lone exception being I do draw to gutshot straights when I know the card I need is coming on the river). Just cannot help myself!! /images/smile.gif


Good luck and good hunting but remember that all trappers do not wear fur hats,


Jimbo

I agree on it being unregulated as what scares me.

I do not play on Paradise, so I can not expound on them, but if they do have a huge # of raked games going on, it would be much less sense for them to cheat.


But this leads us to the other side, are there sites with much less raked action that seem successful?

Such as a tournament site. Would seem to me that a site with a $11 tourney that lasts well over an hour with 100+ people in it is gaining much less by not having at least some of these people on the tables.


And cheating by the house can lead to a quick pop, such as taking the first prize, which is worth many times more than the 10% they get (ok about 4 times more).


Would make sense for the site to do this with no cheating if this lead to a lot of people playing raked games...but if that doesn't happen, doesn't seem like they could be very profitable.


Does such a site become suspicious?

Doesn't take a ton of cheating to jump their gross profits either.

You do have the gift of gab i'll give you that tex (lol)... You haven't been reading the threads if you think i'm the only one the thinks it's rigged. As for converting, don't put words in my mouth please. I couldn't care less what you all do. Although it does appear a few haven't recently quit in related threads. How about instead of me proving it's rigged.... you prove it isn't. Oh, and please people, enough of "it's not worth it to rig it" Of course it is... more money, tons more. If you knew you couldn't get caught would you rig it? It doesn't seem to be regulated very well if at all. Anyway, convince me jimbo. You're articulate.... or is it because there isn't a way to prove it either way. Just to let you know... If i had to choose, i would say it's not rigged. I'm just trying to convince myself 100%... i am actually winning a little on the site i play on now. Good day.

...Paradise banned me for too many inquiries about the integrity of their game. I wasn't rude so i guess I got too close to something illegal...


Seems like if you feel you can repeatedly ask them to prove their game isn't rigged to your satisfaction, they can ask you to prove that you're not scobi to their satisfaction.

" I find it hard to believe that you guys could be good players with that attitude and childishness."


This is faulty logic. Many top players are totally infantile, immature, well, just pricks. Check out the Commerce top section for confirmation.

since ive played online off and on, and tons of live play...


anyone who says online is just like real is full of it. flat out. but there are pros and cons to each.


that last thread had some great ideas. beaten into the ground, yes, but still never confirmed. so i think its ok to honestly keep open about it. especially because it CAN exist. i dont see reggie's inquiry as just conspiracy, i think he genuinely wants to know...


what i have experienced...


the cash out bs. it sucks...be prepared for the worst beats for awhile...ive learned to tighten up or lay off for a while....this has happened every time and not just to me.


amazing flops/catches. some are just too convenient. flop a great hand to be beaten by a runner with no flop call, yet folds at other times? hmmm


no site is more common than another that i saw. and i figure thats just part of online cards. it does have a very different feel than live. hence ive learned to adjust to it a little. hint..the paired flops too many times seem to hit someone. even if its shorthanded or HU with amazing accuracy.

i look at the # of hands played and divide by 35 and figure thats an hour in a live room. i have yet to see the clump of bad beats happen as frequently in live games. at times it can seem the other players "know whats coming". but again...i figure thats part of online play...though their playing pattern doesnt always support their play. that part can make you wonder at times too...


knowing these things, i know what to expect. ill put up with it since im winning overall online. but i dont see anything wrong with asking the questions.

though very doubtful the truth will ever be told.


some say why would a site risk it? why do many commit crimes then keep going for higher stakes? sure the honest people who never studied crime psychology,dont see this, but look at crime history. here there's no regulation. and minor skimming would be hard to prove. this medium is ripe for the taking.


so to go into this forray blindly is both stupid and naive. many players i play only buy in a small amount, build up, cash out their initial buyin plus some, then build from there.


just some thoughts for now...too much i could type...


b

You are a wise man.


Tom D

I don’t think you’re seeing the big picture. The real prize is market share. If a poker room, B&M or Online, can’t grab and hold on to a big enough piece of the market, it will go belly up. Remember Highlands? The question isn’t would a site cheat to skim off a few extra bucks? It’s would a site cheat to maintain a large enough customer base to save itself and its investors from losing their shirts?


Tom D

There is no way to absolutely PROVE it...


Say some 3rd party reviews the site. The 3rd party could be in on it. Say the US government regulates it. Regulation won't stop rigging, plus it just takes a few bribes to let a little bit of rigging through (so instead of 5% rake, the rake becomes effectively 5.3% or so... a little extra juice).


Las Vegas has had it's share of "rigging", and it's fully regulated! For example some programmer of a slot machine, etc...


Even if your brother was president of WhiteHouseOnLinePoker.com, who's to say a rouge programmer who's very clever can't insert a few lines of code to give him a slight advantage?


There's no way to ever absolutely prove it one way or the other, even if it was US regulated.


For example, the stock market is "US regulated". There have been accusations of unethical behavior by analysts, the Enron and Wcom incidents, etc...


It's about risks, anything you do in life entails risks.


For the record, I don't think any site rigs the deal. If a site cheated, it would be by having house players play, or not punishing known colluders, by dissapearing with everyone's money, etc... but I really don't think any site "rigs" the deals to produce extra action.


- Tony

'nuf said.

" It’s would a site cheat to maintain a large enough customer base to save itself and its investors from losing their shirts? "


This is an important part of my theory of Parasite Poker's domination. The got started fairly early in the race. More than once in the early days the flow of the games changed in ways that were impossible for live play. The boost given to the pigeons was altered and tinkered with in order to find the correct formula for maximum revenue, balancing the loss rate of the pigeons vs the win rate for the sharks. They may well be dealing a straight game now or in the future, I don't know. I am certain the game was well twisted in 1999 and i also know several well respected pros with exactly the same opinion.

"For example, the stock market is "US regulated". There have been accusations of unethical behavior by analysts, the Enron and Wcom incidents, etc... "


i think the afterhours trading is pretty bad. since it is much like insider trading. and only certain people can do it. its not open to everyone. yet the US doesnt seem to mind...


something to think about


b

Also they should get rid of market makers. Something like Island is great. /images/smile.gif


- Tony

good post

nice post bernie!