internet gambling - rigged or not...

ok boys, we have to be able to figure this out. Is it rigged or not dammit!?


Now, i've seen thousands or posts on this site and others. Some are convinced it's rigged, some are convinced it's not. I have some valuable information that i'd like to share as well as some questions. This is gonna be long, but if you want to get to the bottom of it like me, let's dig in.


First, about me. I'm 28 and i've played poker for money since high school. I've played about 100,000 hands on paradise before they banned me and i also play on truepoker. When I play brick and mortar i have far better success.(yes, we know online is diff. and i'll get to that)


Ok, lets look at key points. Why would they rig it? It's not worth the risk. It's guaranteed profit from rake. It would be insane to jeopardize that... unless it's not possible to be caught. What if the gaming commission is in on it, or just not qualified to find the cryptic code that causes more action and therefore more rake? Or maybe there is some loophole or fineprint that makes programming it for more action legal. There have been cases of rigged slots in real casino's, why not online? It would be so easy to cheat. Usually when there is a possibility for corruption there is.


Posts supporting the fact that it's not rigged: Couldn't these easily be people affiliated with the online casinos? I know if i had a rigged online casino i would have employess writing up reviews that claim it's legit. Who can you believe? No one i guess. I could work for paradise, truepoker, partypoker, etc. And then of course they tell you all the reasons why you're losing online,... because you can't adapt. Yes it's faster, so more hands, bigger swings. It's easier to call cause it's a button, and it's like a video game. it's easy to lose focus cause of the wife or tv. Hmm, not me. I tend to watch what i'm doing. You can't see their faces or gestures. Gimme a break! How often have you beaten someone because they suck so bad they have a tell that gives away their hand. This is quite rare. Maybe in the movies. Anyway, don't you think strong poker players can adjust to the differences of online poker. It ain't that different!


I thought i could capitalize on the loose play. How often can those rags hit? Someone has a piece of every flop. Every open end and 4 flush hits. How is this possible i think to myself. AA every 10th hand. Could it be programmed for more action!!!? Maybe online poker isn't rigged, it's just chaos and you need to be very lucky to win. Chaos because there are so many loose players and therefore so many rags hitting.


Why I got banned from paradise. While i was playing i sent many emails questioning if it was rigged or not. One day i stumbled onto the fact that partypoker and paradise poker have a very similar look and functionality. It's basically the same but partypoker looks better. I asked both of them if they were affiliated with one another. Partypoker's online host would not give a straight answer, almost blantently lying. And paradise would only answer me the second time saying, "we cannot prevent other sites from stealing our look and functionality" It goes beyond that tho, it's obviously the same core engine. It's too close. But, i guess you could just mimick it. So... then i research a little more. I find out that Partypoker is canadian based and regulated by the Kahnawake gaming commission. i'm like, wait a minute, that's the same as paradise poker. How is this possible if Paradise is in Costa Rica? So i ask paradise the same question. They say they have a backup server in quebec, canada and that's how they can use the same gaming commission. Hmmm, what do you think of that? Could be nothing I guess... heh.


A lot of people have suggested that paradise have a prestigious 3rd party review their site. And they did it. I was so happy, until i read the document posted on their site.


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"We have performed standard statistical tests on the records of the cards dealt contained in the log files provided to us by management. We have the hand histories available from the Paradise Poker web site and agreed these to the log files provided to us by management. We confirm that based on our testing of these log files convering the period 9 February to 31 March, 2002.


- Cards dealt in each poker game were selected from a standard deck of fifty-two playing cards.


- The cards were dealt from the deck such that each card had an equal chance of being selected unless it had already been dealt in the same poker game. "

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This document is worded very carefully don't you think? Tested "log files provided to us by management"... so they could be any files, manipulated files. They agreed the hand histories and log files... hmmm, that's very interesting wording.


Ok... what else. There are so many points. And all can be argued both ways. I'm sure you've heard this one before. I cashed out then i get burnt. This happens to me repeatidly on multiple sites. I buy in... double my money, cash out and try to play with up money....this can't be done. The cards become amazingly dry. Then when you do get nice cards some one pulls off a miracle. The first, second, and third time i cashed out i figured coincidence... but everytime?


One example: I cash out. Back to the tables. I have QQ, I raise pre. 97o calls cold. Now this is a player that has 500.00 in front of him on 2/4. I know this doesn't mean he's good, but there's more probability he is. Flop: Q 10 2 rainbow. I bet again. He calls. turn: Q 10 2 6. No flush possibilities, The only draw he has is a gut shot. I bet again. He calls. Riv is an 8. Anyway... i know this might not mean anything, but that is an amazing call, even for a retard. And that's just one of many similar examples. That's going beyond loose. it's very suspect. It makes me think that there are employees or bots playing, because it makes so sense to play that way.


Some people say, why would they let you cash out if they are cheating. Well, it would be a little too obvious if no one could win, or if no one cashed out. You win a little, cash out. Then you get crushed and have to buy in again, maybe twice. It seems they make it so you end up buying in just a little more than you cash out.


There are some people that think you are put into a level system. The better you are the higher your level of difficulty is set. Now this make absolutely no sense unless there are employees or bots playing....because why do they care who wins? rake is rake. Interesting theory. Maybe that's why it seems so hard to win after a cashout. I know 2 other pro's personally that can't win and have also noticed the cash out scenario.


Now what about the winning players? There are players that win. of course, someone has to win or no one would play. There are theories that they allow one or two players in each region to win. Is that evil or what?! Too perfect. I do know of someone that is up 20,000 on paradise. He is the only person I know that is up in online poker. I can beat this guy repeatidly in real life poker...hmmm.


Online poker is the perfect scam if it's rigged, because there's no one to prove it either way and you will have so called pro's telling you all the reasons why you lose online compared to real games. I have probably forgotten a lot of points but i'm sure they will come to me as people respond. I want to believe it's not rigged, I REALLY DO!

If they are cheating, why do I win? Why do other players, that I think play well, win?


Why do players I think play bad poker, with enough time, lose?


MS Sunshine

like i said, they have to let some win or no one would play. Also, you could be anyone. You could work for a online casino and just be saying you're a winner to encourage others to play.

He does work for a casino and has for several. He has no creibility and no shame. He's already been exposed as a team member for colluding shills.

You wouldn't know the truth if it came up to you on the street wearing a plaid coat, bright yellow pants and is playing the kazzo.


MS Sunshine

See what i mean... MS Sunshine you have already been acused, and you are answering my posts about if it's rigged or not. And what a lame comeback too. Why not try and defend yourself? I'm more inclined to believe the acuser. You are just backing up my belief that online casino's have people writing reviews and post messages to shut up the people that suspect it's rigged. Even if you are legit, you've proven nothing.

Reggi - you are making some good points. But on the other hand how would an online room prove that it's clean?


Imagine that you are in charge of Paradise and assume that you know that it is not rigged. What would you do to prove it to players?

Look you can accuse me under any name you want. You come home, have a few beers and post about a subject you know little about. You have these long threads talking with yourself and you should be happy that there is someone to talk with you before they delete your posts. Pretty soon the beer will make you sleepy, you will feel you have defeated those evil online poker players and you can stumble off to bed.


Have a nice day.


MS Sunshine

That is an amazing point! And therin lies the frustration of this topic. I would have a known 3rd party review the running code/programmnig, not log files. Maybe even two 3rd party companies. Showing ip address comes to mind, so you could see that the people are from different places and not bots or employess. But, you could rig that too. Maybe if it was regulated by the gov't. by the way, i'm not totally convinced it's rigged, but there are so many points that i have made....and why ban me just because i found out that party poker and paradise use the same gaming commission, oh and because i criticized that document that claims they are legit. I basically just told them the document is more suspect than proof.

lol, you are too much. I know little of what i'm talking about eh? You're telling me i'm drinking beer, lol. You are totally not credible. You're just spewing irrelvant insults. I am trying to research something and you're not helping, so stay out of this thread unless you have something relevant to say. I would say i know quite a bit about what i'm talking about, which is probably what pisses you off. And probably why i got banned. Why not try and debate the topic instead of theses childish remarks. By the way...you're the one that needs to get a life(and quit talking to yourself) I'm on here temporarily to research, you seem to live on here. Please don't post again in this thread if you're going to be childish and irrelevant.

Just this week, I wrote a post about this subject, it's below titled "Is online poker honest"


If you are really not one of the different incantations of our resident troll, I'm sorry for my flippant comments. He makes spelling spelling mistakes and thinks online poker is ......ah, never mind.


Have a nice day.

Hi Reggi,


I can't comment on your other points, as there's no way to know one way or the other. As for me, you can believe I work for Paradise, or you can believe that I don't. I'll state that I do not work for Paradise, but I create and sell software that analyzes hand histories from Paradise. I have considered supporting other sites, but the customer base of Paradise players is just too great, while the customer base of other sites is very small. The good thing is that is changing.


Anyways, I want to make a comment about your paragraph:


" thought i could capitalize on the loose play. How often can those rags hit? Someone has a piece of every flop. Every open end and 4 flush hits. How is this possible i think to myself. AA every 10th hand. Could it be programmed for more action!!!? Maybe online poker isn't rigged, it's just chaos and you need to be very lucky to win. Chaos because there are so many loose players and therefore so many rags hitting. "


I've verified, along with a lot of other players, that 4 flushes hit at the correct rate WHEN YOU HOLD THEM. Straight draws hit at the correct rate WHEN YOU HOLD THEM. You get AA down to 22 at the correct rate. You flop sets at the correct rate. The board comes 3 flushed and 4 flushed at the correct rate. You flop a pair with AKo at the correct rate.


Now, many players have verified this also. What this seems to indicate is that none of these players have been "helped" by Paradise in that their draws get there more, etc... If say, 50% of the table is "helped" by having their draws get there more often, it is very likely that out of the many people who have ran this card analysis on the dealt cards at Paradise that one of them would have fallen in this "50%".


Now, this analysis does not detect if hands are setup. You can still have a flush versus a full house more often than it should, etc... to generate more action. If the dealing is setup this way, it would have to be offset so that the number of flushes, etc... hit at the expected rate. Randomness of boards are at the expected rate. Hole cards and boards are at the expected rate. The rigging would consist of situations, not "flushes coming more often than they should". It would be "flush comes while one person has a straight", etc... and then the program would have to remember this and offset it by not giving a flush some other time...


What people claim, like "I get AA more often than 22", or "a A or K flops twice as often as it should", just aren't true, at least on Paradise Poker. I am in the process of doing this analysis on another poker site's hand histories, and in the future, will do it on a 3rd poker site.


- Tony

And what stops them from changing the code before its reviewed and then changing it back?


If a third party is viewing the code what stops them from taking the card randomization code and then producing programs that can tell what hands everyones been dealt and what cards will be seen on the flop/turn/river?

listen dude, i don't want to have a feud with you; i'm just researching. And there's a difference between spelling mistakes and typo's(also irrelevant). I don't really care if i spell accused with one C as long as i get my point across. By the way you wrote spelling twice...lol. Anyway, I've read your post and many others and still have no proof either way.

MS...


You have the most amazing stubborn streak. What in god's name compels you to argue with the wall? By the original post, it is clear that this guy has no idea what he is talking about. As soon as i get to a paragraph that starts with "one example...I have QQ and some moron...", I hit the back button faster than you can say "runner-runner".


You must have some very interesting battles-of-will with your cats...


I know reggi, i'm must be an employee yadda yadda yadda.


Some win, some lose. Those that lose must justify. For the record, I didn't get laid very much in high school, because I obviously intimidated the ladies with my stunning features.


Tuco.

Tony, thank you very much for that info. yes, you could be anyone, but you are probably correct because they do make there hand histories available to the public and it was supposedly reviewed by PriceWaterHouseCoopers.

BUT...

It is still possible it's coded for more action...

That is ingenious, hypothetically they could have it programmed so that it appears as tho it's random dealing because you get certain combinations the correct number of times but big hands hit at the same time, like a flush and a full house, thus providing more rake. Also, with that theory they could manipulate the game in many ways. Arg....what's your email address dude? I'll give you mine if you're more comfortable with that....

very funny. The example with QQ was just to illustrate that bots are a possibility. That the call was so ridiculous that a human wouldn't do it. And it was one example, that doesn't mean it happened once. I am well aware that there are bad beats and that people call with rags and hit. I am trying to be devil's advocate and explore all possibilities. You are very quick to stereotype.

Some win, some lose. Those that lose must justify. For the record, I didn't get laid very much in high school, because I obviously intimidated the ladies with my stunning features


I haven't laughed so hard in years, I think I really hurt something. I have to go to the hospital, right now. I just wanted to post this first.


MS Sunshine

Right now Paradise Poker is making over $700 per hour in rakes.

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From just 3 of the 193 active tables.


Stakes: $20/$40

Avg Pot: $247|$261|$180

Hands/hr: 89/96/91

Rake: $3/hand


They have a cash fucking cow on their hands. Why is that so hard to see?

See what i mean... MS Sunshine you have already been acused, and you are answering my posts about if it's rigged or not


Oops, I thought I responded to the bitter truth's post not yours reggi. One of us must be mistaken. When you spell the same word wrong twice in the same post it's not a typo, you just can't spell the word correctly.


MS Sunshine

...I have read and heard and listened to it all and have finally decided to quit online poker for good. Here is why.


I have taken 15 bad beats in the last 48 hrs from people calling with BS (I didn't even play that many hands) and staying in with the same wild calls described below -- if I hit the str, they hit the flush just after -- if I hit the flush, they would catch the miracle boat, or if I have the boat, what-da-know -- QUADS!? I have broken even, or maybe only lost a little online since I started playing, but thanks to the PP promotion, and after taking multi other bad beats and giving some back, I have decided that that is that.


I don't care if you people say it is my play, etc, as I know that it is not -- it is the lack of tells, and the lack of logic that is missing from the online world, and I care not to be part of this any longer. I will just wait for my trips to CO to play there (or Vegas if I can make it) and have fun. But as far as playing online anymore -- not happening...something there is just not right...I am not sure what, but I am tired of the whole thing.


Believe what you want, but the online world is not even close to the same game as it should be.


See you at the REAL tables!

Tony - can you name the 2nd and the 3rd site?

Looking into TruePoker, PokerStars, and PartyPoker. Also, Reggi, sure post your email and I'll email you! - Tony

Just look in the newspaper to find your analogs in the business world...or keep your eyes shut and keep playing.

No weight to these words, sorry.

and your point is? *NM*

I do not think that the sites are rigged and here is why. If you look at things psychologically, players will be worse and loser online than in a real game as there is no pressure, embarassment, or shame in playing stupid stuff and showing it down. And online, there is going to be no one sitting close to you to mouth-off about it or try to make you feel stupid for playing a hand. Sure they might type some stuff, but you will never get a while table, or a few people putting emotional pressure on people who play weak hands, and also, people who are good, can play more weak hands without being personally "responsible" for their play. I think that people play MUCH DIFFERENT when they are with LIVE PLAYERS. Also, the lose calls are not with anything physical, it is with vapor chips. To make a dumb lose call online, all you have to do is push a button on a mouse--you never have to physically pick something up that you have and cash out right now, push it forward and let go. Thus, people will call more stupid stuff as they don't lose anything made of real materials when they bet.


If you don't actually hold something, you can't really feel that it is there, and thus, aren't going to protect it as much.


Just a theory. What do y'all think?


(Sorry for any spelling errors, as I don't have spell check and have a hard time spelling :o(

Lots of poker sites have their servers on the Kahnawake reservation in Canada. It is simply a server farm on an internet backbone which provides cheaper, better, faster access than jamming up the limited resources available in third world countries.


Several sites have copied the look of Paradise (hardly an unusual business decision -- to copy the industry leader) but, no, my programming experience tells me, no, none of them are using the same software.


I don't work for any online site, but have worked in many Las Vegas casinos. I win at poker, live and online.


I have had the pleasure of meeting and playing live with several players I first encountered online. Many (most) of them were on my get in their game list. Although they were standout players in their local games, they would need a lot of work to be able to hold their own in a Vegas game.


When 97 beats QQ, you say nice hand and add him to your list. When it happens 4 times in an hour, you take a break until your heart stops pounding and your hands stop shaking. If you play well, after a couple thousand hours the money will be there. If you only think you play well, the money will be gone.


Perhaps they banned you simply because you are so obstinate in your incorrect assumptions and conclusions and they got tired of having you eat up so much of the time of the support staff.

You have done what I am thinking.


Thank you for sharing.


Michael


Be the flop...

See the flop...

You're not being the flop, Danny.

you make some good points. If they banned me because i am obstinate that is poor customer service. I am sure they get thousands of emails questioning the integrity of the game. To ban a player that plays as many hours as me for civily questioning the game is ridiculous. Once again the QQ against 97 was an example that maybe employees or bots are playing. I am well aware there are bad calls and bad beats.

My point is that Paradise can make upwards of $6,000(probably more) per hour in rake from running their games.


If this isn't enough to suppliment Osama and the Al Queda, I don't know what is.

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The last sentance was a joke.

...is that your vapor chip theory might say more about you than others /images/smile.gif. Poker players, those who attempt to play well and those who do play well, are only concerned with: What is the right play? Would chess players play more recklessly if the pieces they used were paper pictures?


However, I think you’re right about players playing more aggressively. Some people are naturally intimidated in groups of live people. Unfortunately, that usually means they play better online than onlive.


Tom D