Check-raising the river

[private joker]

Just sat down, no reads on Villain.

Putting Villain on trip aces or a flush, I figured this would be a good time to smooth-call the turn and check-raise the river. How do we like?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB folds, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, SB folds, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: (6 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (10 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, Button calls.

Final Pot: 18 BB

[spydog]

I don't like it. You have a full house, but he likes his hand. Play it fast. He's more likely to overplay his trip Aces or flush on the turn than on the river. If he's giving you cap action on the river with a worse hand then you'll wonder if you could have gotten cap action on the turn as well.

Also, ask yourself 'would I have puked if he had checked behind on the river with a Qc semibluff?'

[chesspain]

I think that checkraising the river is a bit too fancy...but I further think that capping is spewing. The button is telling you he's not afraid of whatever you're holding--and I've seen plenty of low limit players only coldcall preflop, rather than raise, with AK.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that checkraising the river is a bit too fancy...but I further think that capping is spewing. The button is telling you he's not afraid of whatever you're holding--and I've seen plenty of low limit players only coldcall preflop, rather than raise, with AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

I considered AK, but there are only 2 ways to have it, while there are many many more holdings for trip aces and a flush. I thought that for value, I am ahead (and he will call a cap) far more often than I am behind. Furthermore, anyone who gets this aggressive on later streets is likely to 3-bet PF with AK. Is this faulty reasoning?

[poboys]

At 2/4 I see lots of players who just call a raise in the BB with AK hoping to trap later.

Also, 3-betting the turn seems to be more in line with your 'value' line of thinking.

[adamstewart]

I think you missed 2 BB's on the turn. (That's a good 100 hands' work).

Adam

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]

Putting Villain on trip aces or a flush, I figured this would be a good time to smooth-call the turn and check-raise the river. How do we like?


[/ QUOTE ]
One problem with waiting until the river is that there are a lot of scare cards that can that may kill your action. If he is on a trip aces or small flush, a fourth club will scare him. With any flush, he won't like another A, 2 or the case K. I would perfer to get the money in now while he still likes his hand.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that checkraising the river is a bit too fancy...but I further think that capping is spewing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. There are far more ways villain could have a flush than AK. Villain thinks joker is betting three aces, and villain has a flush. This is a much more likely the situation than the one in which joker is beat. Cap for value. If you lose, you lose. Next time, cap for value again.

gm

[jason_t]

Unnecessarily fancy. I think you left bets on the table on the turn; 3-bet it. There are river cards that could have slowed villian down. Villian may have checked it through. Cap the river if given the chance.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
At 2/4 I see lots of players who just call a raise in the BB with AK hoping to trap later.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain was on the Button, not the BB.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, 3-betting the turn seems to be more in line with your 'value' line of thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true, but just in case he was on a heads-up bluff raise, a 3-bet on the turn would push him to fold immediately, whereas check-raising the river would get an extra bet out of him. At least, that's what I was thinking at the time (while also assuming that if he did have trip aces/flush, that my check-raise on the river might get more BBs in). But consdering a pure value play, I should probably just 3-bet this turn anyway. The question is, do we sometimes try fancy check-raises that give up value on one street to gain value on another?

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Putting Villain on trip aces or a flush, I figured this would be a good time to smooth-call the turn and check-raise the river. How do we like?


[/ QUOTE ]
One problem with waiting until the river is that there are a lot of scare cards that can that may kill your action. If he is on a trip aces or small flush, a fourth club will scare him. With any flush, he won't like another A, 2 or the case K. I would perfer to get the money in now while he still likes his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good point.

I'll add, though, that in this hand Button should at least consider that he might be up against AK (or Private Joker's actual KK), so it could be difficult to get a lot of big bets out of a flush anyway.

Of course, if Villain has AK instead of a flush, then he won't worry . . .

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]


I considered AK, but there are only 2 ways to have it, while there are many many more holdings for trip aces and a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

True...but how many of those hands are going to three-bet a river checkraise against a PF raiser on this board?

In addition, don't forget that you can also be up against AT here (similar to a hand of mine from this afternoon when I three-bet PF w/AK vs. a TAG, flopped trip aces, called behind on the flop and turn, and then raised the river and had to call a three-bet when my opponent with AJ rivered his kicker /images/graemlins/tongue.gif).

[Nick C]

I'm pretty sure I would have just 3-bet the turn.

An interesting question is how much the river checkraise affected the number of bets that went in. I think some opponents will fear such a checkraise and just call, whereas they might have capped the turn with, say, AQ, and then at least called a bet on the river.

Other opponents might instead, out of annoyance with the river checkraise (or because they're thinking, "Oh, you just made a straight with your QJ, did you?"), go ahead and 3-bet a river checkraise when they just would have called down versus a turn 3-bet by Hero.

Anyway, if I were Hero (and I had called the turn raise and checkraised on the river), I probably would have capped the river, although I do agree with Chesspain that AK is a real concern. I doubt I'd cap if Button could 5-bet.

If I 3-bet the turn and Button then capped, I think I might just bet-call the river. I don't know that that's actually best, but it's what I might have done.

[sthief09]

yuck. plays like this are completely unnecessary 99% of the time. the only time I'd do this is if I didn't want him to fold the turn, and thought he might bluff the river. as it stands, if you 3-bet the turn and bet the river you'll make just as much, but without the risk of him checking behind on the river

[sthief09]

yeah, I think getting even odds, this is an easy cap. he'll have the flush or an underboat plenty often

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you missed 2 BB's on the turn. (That's a good 100 hands' work).

Adam

[/ QUOTE ]


even though I hate his turn smooth call, this comment isn't right. if his opponent 3-bet the turn and he capped, then he bet and got raised on the river, he'd have to just call the 3-bet. in THIS case, it didn't cause him to lose money. but putting his opponent on a range of hands on the turn, I'm sure his play would have a lower expectation than 3-betting the turn

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]


If I 3-bet the turn and Button then capped, I think I might just bet-call the river. I don't know that that's actually best, but it's what I might have done.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds reasonable, though it gets the same # of BBs in as bet-calling the turn and capping the river. I suppose there's the same amount of doubt as to how Villain will react to either line, though the safer line is probably yours.

Chesspain -- would you take that line? 3-bet the turn, call a cap, bet-call the river? Or would you check-call the river if capped on the turn?

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
if his opponent 3-bet the turn and he capped, then he bet and got raised on the river, he'd have to just call the 3-bet. in THIS case, it didn't cause him to lose money. but putting his opponent on a range of hands on the turn, I'm sure his play would have a lower expectation than 3-betting the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't quite understand this because my opponent can't 3-bet the turn -- I can. So sthief, what's your line if I get capped after 3-betting the turn; do I bet-call the river?

[SparkyDog]

[ QUOTE ]
Your raises on the river are kind of odd, because in neither case the river helps you, though you probably still have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

C/R the river is used to save bets when behind. SpicyF had a really good post about it in Mid-High, and I think it was sthief that had another excellent thread about checkraising the river here in SS. Either way, you should look for either of those threads.

I prefer 3-betting here though.

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you missed 2 BB's on the turn. (That's a good 100 hands' work).

Adam

[/ QUOTE ]


even though I hate his turn smooth call, this comment isn't right. if his opponent 3-bet the turn and he capped, then he bet and got raised on the river, he'd have to just call the 3-bet. in THIS case, it didn't cause him to lose money. but putting his opponent on a range of hands on the turn, I'm sure his play would have a lower expectation than 3-betting the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

I get your point about possibly being scared if our opponent continues to bet/raise on the river... but given our range of possible hands (and how the FLUSH or TRIP Aces are the MOST probable hands), why would we let up on the river and just call instead of continuing to re-raise?


OR,

Did you mean that you think the Villain would slow down on the river if the turn was capped? (I don't know if this is true, though, as we have seen that Villain did continue through to a capped river).

??



Adam

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you missed 2 BB's on the turn. (That's a good 100 hands' work).


[/ QUOTE ]

Villain had A2. Way to get all your money in drawing dead, Joker.

Chesspain was basically the only poster correctly reading Villain's hand and recommending that I do not cap the river. It looks like whether I 3-bet the turn or not, I was destined to lose 5-6BB (that's a good 200 hands' worth) on the big streets in this hand. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you missed 2 BB's on the turn. (That's a good 100 hands' work).


[/ QUOTE ]

Villain had A2. Way to get all your money in drawing dead, Joker.

Chesspain was basically the only poster correctly reading Villain's hand and recommending that I do not cap the river. It looks like whether I 3-bet the turn or not, I was destined to lose 5-6BB (that's a good 200 hands' worth) on the big streets in this hand. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes it works that way. Once Villain's flop slowplay achieves the best possible result and you catch a king on the turn, you're going to lose some big bets. (Well, unless you catch another king on the river.)

I am curious whether Chesspain would have check-called or bet-called the river after 3-betting the turn and having his opponent cap, but he didn't tell us, unfortunately.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Chesspain was basically the only poster correctly reading Villain's hand and recommending that I do not cap the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I am curious whether Chesspain would have check-called or bet-called the river after 3-betting the turn and having his opponent cap, but he didn't tell us, unfortunately.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would probably just check-call the river after being capped on the turn.