Best Heavyweight Fighter

[Toro]

Who was the best heavyweight of all time in his prime, not for his career. By prime I mean at his absolute best. I know everyone hates Tyson, but he was an absolute beast at his best. Because of their contrasting styles my fantasy fight would be Ali vs. Tyson, again, both at their absolute best.

I think Ali would figure out a way to win.

[Dynasty]

Another best thread?

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20050128/capt.ah20101280551.cow_pie_conflagration_ah201.jpg

[Toro]

You didn't have to open it.

[Dynasty]

You don't have to post it. This stuff is beyond repetitive and clutters the forum.

There have been lots of boxing threads in which the best ever have been discussed.

[Toro]

[ QUOTE ]
You don't have to post it. This stuff is beyond repetitive and clutters the forum.

There have been lots of boxing threads in which the best ever have been discussed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pardon me, Mr. Moderator.

[mcb]

definatly tyson. he was relentless and in his prime would end the majority of his fights in the first and second rounds. he would fight people like they just killed his mother.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
definatly tyson. he was relentless and in his prime would end the majority of his fights in the first and second rounds. he would fight people like they just killed his mother.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever. Tyson isn't even on the list. Name one "good win" he ever had other than Spinks laying down. There are none. Buster Douglass owned him and Mike was in his prime. I love how people want to ignore that fact. That wasn't a flukey win, that was an ass kicking by a guy who wasn't afraid of him. He came back and got owned twice by Holyfield where he was exposed as a total fraud. Typical bully that had trouble with anyone who wasn't afraid of him. He struggled mightily against Razor Ruddick twice. Maybe the most overrated athlete of the 20th century.

Give me Ali and Foreman.

[BeerMoney]

Ali.

[RogerZBT]

[ QUOTE ]
Buster Douglass owned him and Mike was in his prime.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think Tyson was the best ever either, but he was far from his prime physically or emotionally in that fight and still knocked Douglas down. He's certainly in the top 10.

[swede123]

Ingmar Johansson!!!

Swede

[Goodie54]

Rocky Marciano. Who has any doubt? Never beaten.

Peace

Goodie

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]

definatly tyson. he was relentless and in his prime would end the majority of his fights in the first and second rounds. he would fight people like they just killed his mother.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this a joke post, by any chance?

Ali would have made Tyson look like a total klutz.

Didn't George Foreman hit as hard or harder than Tyson? George could take a punch a lot better, too. If Tyson bit Foreman's ear, Foreman would have knocked him into next week.

Marciano was much tougher than Tyson ever dreamed of being.

Could Tyson have beaten Joe Lewis in his prime? I seriously doubt it.

Tyson against any of the above in their primes would have been a mismatch. "Outclassed" would best describe Tyson against any of those guys. Tyson beat a bunch of bums and half-assed fighters. Sure he could hit very hard. But real fighters gave him real problems.

[Joe_d72]

Jack Johnson

[John Feeney]

[ QUOTE ]
Give me Ali and Foreman.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, maybe the best boxer vs the best puncher ever, given the criteria specified by the original post.

But it's hard not to make at least a little allowance for the period in which a boxer fought. Otherwise, considering historical advances in technique and athleticism, you can't easily give serious consideration to any boxer before the '60s or maybe the '50s. If you make just a tiny allowance along the line of "best for his time," then the recent Ken Burns documentary on Jack Johnson make me think Mr. Johnson may just be our man. (And I was always a huge Ali fan.)

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
definatly tyson. he was relentless and in his prime would end the majority of his fights in the first and second rounds. he would fight people like they just killed his mother.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Is this a joke post, by any chance?


[/ QUOTE ]

Doubtful. To many people of my generation, Tyson is the best ever.
[ QUOTE ]
Ali would have made Tyson look like a total klutz.

[/ QUOTE ]

Possible. He did have that effect on people. But that doesn't necessarily mean Tyson couldn't catch him lucky and take him out quick.

[ QUOTE ]
Didn't George Foreman hit as hard or harder than Tyson? George could take a punch a lot better, too. If Tyson bit Foreman's ear, Foreman would have knocked him into next week.


[/ QUOTE ]

Doubtful Foreman hit harder. Foreman wan't even the hardest hitter of his day; that honor is almost unanimously given to Earnie Shavers. Tyson could take punches too, he just didn;t give much of an opportunity to take any many times.
[ QUOTE ]
Marciano was much tougher than Tyson ever dreamed of being.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a hard time disagreeing with this statement, but I've also heard marciano was similar to Holmes in that many/most of the great heavyweights were either to old or too young for most of their prime fighting time.

[ QUOTE ]
Could Tyson have beaten Joe Lewis in his prime? I seriously doubt it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too. But that's not saying alot. Louis is easily top 3 all time, and often regarded #1.

[ QUOTE ]
Tyson against any of the above in their primes would have been a mismatch. "Outclassed" would best describe Tyson against any of those guys. Tyson beat a bunch of bums and half-assed fighters. Sure he could hit very hard. But real fighters gave him real problems.

[/ QUOTE ]

In his prime, I personally feel Tyson had a good shot versus ANY boxer in history. His menace seems quickly forgotten, and a good portion of the reason they were all "bums" is because he crushed about all of them. Funny how losing a few great fights, as Ali did, elevates the perception of the depth of the sport. Personally, I never thought much of Foreman, either time through, Frazier was great, but other than that, Ali in his prime dominated most everyone. Tyson didn;t fight bums; he fought all comers. HE never dodged anyone in his prime, and became lethargic, complacent, and overconfident in his abilities, not to mention he lost his grounding when CUs D'Amato died and he got rid of Kevin Rooney and let Don KIng in. I Firmly belive that if D'Amato lives 5 more years, Rooney stays as his trainer, andKing never enters the picture, Tyson would be considered seriously among the greatest of all time for his entire career, instead of the running punch line and "oh, what he used to be" he is now.

FOr the record, also, Holyfield WAS head butting him the whole first fight, most of the second, and the refs did nothing about it. Not saying I condone biting an ear off, but watch the first fight again and see how many times Holyfield leads with his head directly into Tyson's face going into clinches.

My top 5 list
#1 Joe Louis
#2 Jack Johnson
#3 Muhammad Ali
#4 Rocky Marciano
#5 Mike Tyson

The above considers all at the top of their game.

P.S. Take my opinions for exactly what they cost you here. I'm not a huge boxing fan.

[lapoker17]

Well, I am a huge boxing fan, and I'm glad you took the time to type what I was too lazy to.

Great post.

[mcb]

one thing that people overlook with tyson is his mental drive. i spent two years boxing in high school, at an all black gym where i was picked on and made fun of (the gym was in detroit and i was one of two white kids to go there), but when i would get in the ring to spar a whole different side of me came out. i was pissed at these people and wanted nothing more than to kill them. i was in the zone and felt untouchable. if i felt anything like tyson felt when he got in the ring during his prime then i can easily see him holding his own vs. any boxer who you named.

if he could take control of the fights in 5 rounds or less he could easily win. getting into a sluging match past 5 rounds then he loses. thats just how i veiw the whole situation /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MMMMMM]

I know what you are saying about heart, mcb, but Tyson didn't have it compared to those other guys. Tyson grew up being a bully and a mugger in his teens. He could get mad all right and punch like hell but he really didn't that inner strength deep inside the way Ali or Foreman or Marciano did. Holyfield was a lot stronger mentally than Tyson. The fact that Tyson bit his ear showed just how immature Tyson really was inside--like a little kid playing a big man's game.

I don't think Tyson could match those guys for heart or mental toughness, I really don't. And I can't envision him winning a slugfest with Foreman, either.

Tyson wasn't truly a tough guy deep inside. He was a bully, and at times an angry man, but he cracked under pressure like a little kid. He couldn't control his emotions. Channelling anger or being a bully is not enough versus someone with true mental toughness who can also fight very well also. And Big George would just have overpowered him.

Can't you see it when you look in Tyson's eyes in an interview on TV? Can't you see the fear in Tyson's eyes, in his body language? He showed no fear when he was against opponents he knew he could beat. But just look how he cracked in real fights. He could only fight his best when the competition was not too tough. He couldn't take a real fight against a real world-class boxer. Sure he took on all comers but there just weren't any great boxers at that time to challenge him. He never fought a great boxer. Holyfield was great in his own way but that's not what I mean by great. When Ali was fighting he fought several real challenges. Heck I'd take Joe Frazier over Tyson in a match.

[Mike Gallo]

That wasn't a flukey win, that was an ass kicking by a guy who wasn't afraid of him.

..and Tyson just went from Kevin Rooney training him to Team King. Tysons cornerman didnt even have an enswell, they used condoms filled with ice.

[Mike Gallo]

I agree with Jack Johnson as the best boxer.
He was the first fighter to incorporate footwork in the ring. Joe Lewis ( Karate Joe Lewis) used to talk about Jack Johnson and his footwork during his seminars.

FYI, James Earl Jones potrayed Jack Johnson in the Great White Hope. It centered around a negro marrying a white woman. The law did not allow it back in those days, so Jack moved to England I believe,

[Mike Gallo]

Tyson could not handle the psychological pressure of a might of such magnitude. Ali would have him psyched out before the fight started. For those too young to see Ai's antics, he really got into the head of Joe Frazier. HBO did an excellent special on it. Too this day, Frazier still holds a grudge.

He would have a very difficult time against George Foreman in his prime. George Foreman is listed as 6 4 Tyson stands 5 10. Foreman would bully Tyson around. Tyson could not intimidate Foreman either.

Tyson imploded against Holyfield because he knew he could not win, because he could not intimidate the Warrior Holyfield. He certainly bit Holyfield the second time to get disqualified. Its an easy way of quitting, the jumps way of quitting.

Tyson did not have a real corner against Buster Douglas. After Cus died, Tyson lost his way and his skills.

Next case.

[peachy]

Jack Johnson and Ali

it was the Man Act u were talkin about that affected Johnson he was targeted b/c of his inter-racial marriage...but the law they "claimed" he broke was put in place to prevent trafficing prostitutes over state lines - he took his wife/gf over a state line and they arrested him...go figure

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
Tyson imploded against Holyfield because he knew he could not win, because he could not intimidate the Warrior Holyfield. He certainly bit Holyfield the second time to get disqualified. Its an easy way of quitting, the jumps way of quitting.

[/ QUOTE ]

THis is complete and utter bulls<font color="black"></font>hit, yet a popular miscomception. Watch the first fight again, then the second, and tell me Holyfield the "warrior" wasn't headbutting Tyson constantly going into clinches. Holyfield was/is/always will be overrated as a heavyweight. Yes, he frustrated tyson into doing it, but it wasn't through legal means, although he was doing it well enough for the Ref not to think it was a big deal. Holyfield beat a fat, out-of-shape, uninterested and in-over-his-head Buster douglas to get the title, then proceeded to lose to riddick Bowe, Fight to only a near-draw with a 40-something Foreman, and generallt only fight top contenders when he had to.

I'll say it again; Tyson got jobbed by the ref in the holyfield fights. Watch it again and tell me I'm wrong.

[lapoker17]

This is the Tyson everyone keeps referring to - I think the OP mentioned something about "in his prime" etc...

Tyson at 20-22 was a different person. There was no fear in his eyes, or anywhere else. He was a machine. A piece of iron. He threw the quickest most devastating power shots I've ever seen - And no one could hit him. Made Bert Sugar's top 25 pound for pound of all time - At 22!

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
Tyson could not handle the psychological pressure of a might of such magnitude. Ali would have him psyched out before the fight started. For those too young to see Ai's antics, he really got into the head of Joe Frazier. HBO did an excellent special on it. Too this day, Frazier still holds a grudge.


[/ QUOTE ]

Early in his career, Tyson was unpsycheable, period. All Ali would have done is piss him off, period. Ali likely beats Tyson, but it ain't cuz he psyched him out.

I don't remember Frazier ever losing to Ali because he got "psyched out" , btw. Seems to me that was mainly for hype, which Ali understood, and being a proud black man and called an uncle tom and a gorilla by a draft dodger might have made ME carry a grudge too. Newsflash: Ali was a great boxer. The "psyche out" stuff was mostly window dressing vs his quality opponents.

Quick story about Ali that may be germaine to this; I'll tell how/what I remeber of it. at some point in time just before his first title fight with sonny liston, Ali,(then Cassius Clay), saw Liston in a bar(casino?), and started talking a bit of crap to him. Liston decked him with one punch, and walked away. Clay was sufficiently intimidated.

[Men the Master]

We're talking primes, right? By "prime", I assume the fighter's peak period.

1) The Ali who beat Cleveland Williams, Zora Foley, and Sonny Liston was the Greatest Ever. He would have beaten anybody in history.
2) The Joe Louis who beat Schmelling could have beaten anyone but Ali.
3) The Larry Holmes who beat Ken Norton and Shavers was a master boxer who could have outpointed any heavyweight other than the above two.
4) The George Foreman who beat Norton and Frazier in two rounds a piece. The most devastating puncher ever. He would have destroyed both Patterson and Johanson in one night.
5) The Liston who ko'd Patterson in the first round back to back was scary. Just a hair short of Foreman.
6) The Jack Johnson who toyed around with Burns, Jeffries, and Ketchel like they were his sparring partners. If he were more modern, he probably would rank higher. But he used a bare-knuckle stance that would not be appropriate against the more modern styles.
7) The Rocky Marciano who beat up Walcott, Charles, and Archie Moore. I would rank him much higher if he weren't so small. Definitely the greatest cruiserweight ever.
8) The Jack Dempsey that beat up Firpo could take any punch.
9) The Mike Tyson that united the heavyweight championship in the mid to late 80s against Berbick, Spinks, Pinklon Thomas, and Bonecrusher Smith.
10) The Chris Byrd who shutout Evander Holyfield 12 rounds out of 12 rounds was scientific boxing in action.

[lapoker17]

I thought you were a total genius until I read number 10 - Just brutal.

[MMMMMM]

Ali threw a punch faster than Tyson. Also, Ali had what seemed like near-superhuman reflexes.

[EliteNinja]

Rocky Balboa.

[nicky g]

Clearly, a lot of other people like it. If people find threads boring, they'll disappear quickly.

[zephed56]

Joe Frazier doesn't get much praise here.

[partygirluk]

Lennox Lewis is not getting enough respect here.
I would bet on him at 2/1 against any boxer in history, prime for prime.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
definatly tyson. he was relentless and in his prime would end the majority of his fights in the first and second rounds. he would fight people like they just killed his mother.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever. Tyson isn't even on the list. Name one "good win" he ever had other than Spinks laying down. There are none. Buster Douglass owned him and Mike was in his prime. I love how people want to ignore that fact. That wasn't a flukey win, that was an ass kicking by a guy who wasn't afraid of him. He came back and got owned twice by Holyfield where he was exposed as a total fraud. Typical bully that had trouble with anyone who wasn't afraid of him. He struggled mightily against Razor Ruddick twice. Maybe the most overrated athlete of the 20th century.

Give me Ali and Foreman.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bumped to add, he got whacked by a fat white guy.

[Jeff W]

Joe Louis.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
definatly tyson. he was relentless and in his prime would end the majority of his fights in the first and second rounds. he would fight people like they just killed his mother.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever. Tyson isn't even on the list. Name one "good win" he ever had other than Spinks laying down. There are none. Buster Douglass owned him and Mike was in his prime. I love how people want to ignore that fact. That wasn't a flukey win, that was an ass kicking by a guy who wasn't afraid of him. He came back and got owned twice by Holyfield where he was exposed as a total fraud. Typical bully that had trouble with anyone who wasn't afraid of him. He struggled mightily against Razor Ruddick twice. Maybe the most overrated athlete of the 20th century.

Give me Ali and Foreman.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, Tyson with Cus D'amato wasn't overrated but an absolute monster in the ring. Once Cus died, Tyson went with Don King, who then tried to teach Tyson how to box, abandoning the peek-a boo style that he perfected with Cus. Then came the Douglas fight. Not taking anything away from Douglas as he fought amazingly, but this wasn't the same Tyson that it was under Cus. Tyson never threw a jab until King was involved. What's a short guy with no reach throwing a jab for? I remember my brother and me both said it at the same time when we first saw him throw one. It was like, Wtf!?!

I'll take Joe Louis over Foreman any day. I think Ali was the Joe Montana of Boxing. Very smart. Probably the most well rounded of any of them. He could do it all.

Marciano is my fav, but the division was kind of weak in his time so it's hard to gauge just how good he was.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I Firmly belive that if D'Amato lives 5 more years, Rooney stays as his trainer, andKing never enters the picture, Tyson would be considered seriously among the greatest of all time for his entire career, instead of the running punch line and "oh, what he used to be" he is now.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think he was bound to be a punchline, but I agree with your statement. Those 'big' fights would've been much different with 'Cus' in the corner.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
This is the Tyson everyone keeps referring to - I think the OP mentioned something about "in his prime" etc...

Tyson at 20-22 was a different person. There was no fear in his eyes, or anywhere else. He was a machine. A piece of iron. He threw the quickest most devastating power shots I've ever seen - And no one could hit him. Made Bert Sugar's top 25 pound for pound of all time - At 22!

[/ QUOTE ]

I think some forgot, or never saw just how amazing he was during this time. It's known that he hit harder than foreman. The leverage he got on uppercuts was astounding.

b

[bernie]

Very nice list. Hard to argue with it.

b

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I Firmly belive that if D'Amato lives 5 more years, Rooney stays as his trainer, andKing never enters the picture, Tyson would be considered seriously among the greatest of all time for his entire career, instead of the running punch line and "oh, what he used to be" he is now.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think he was bound to be a punchline, but I agree with your statement. Those 'big' fights would've been much different with 'Cus' in the corner.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

D'Amato encouraged Tyson's personality excesses, according to a great article in the New Yorker a number of years ago. Tyson had plenty of problems very early on, and it wasn't only Don King that brought him along as a boxer first and as a human being as a distant second. D'Amato wasn't as bad as King, but that's not saying much. He was definitely no hero.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is the Tyson everyone keeps referring to - I think the OP mentioned something about "in his prime" etc...

Tyson at 20-22 was a different person. There was no fear in his eyes, or anywhere else. He was a machine. A piece of iron. He threw the quickest most devastating power shots I've ever seen - And no one could hit him. Made Bert Sugar's top 25 pound for pound of all time - At 22!

[/ QUOTE ]

I think some forgot, or never saw just how amazing he was during this time. It's known that he hit harder than foreman. The leverage he got on uppercuts was astounding.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

How, I wonder, could this possibly be known, Bernie?

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought you were a total genius until I read number 10 - Just brutal.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah seriously, that one was like "huh???"

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
D'Amato encouraged Tyson's personality excesses, according to a great article in the New Yorker a number of years ago. Tyson had plenty of problems very early on, and it wasn't only Don King that brought him along as a boxer first and as a human being as a distant second. D'Amato wasn't as bad as King, but that's not saying much. He was definitely no hero

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no question Tyson was extremely more disciplined of a fighter under Cus than at any other time in his career. Watch the fights themselves for proof of that.

I'm not saying Cus didn't use Tyson for his own gain. Don King ruined Tysons style by trying to change him and make him a more 'rounded' fighter. Which was a serious error.

b

[Blarg]

I understand what you mean. People said the same thing about De la Hoya, who also started changing his style and his trainers to become more well-rounded and started having more trouble because of it -- which led him to try even more changes, etc.

[bernie]

Purely hypothetical, obviously. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

However, watch some film. Foremans punching style compared to Tysons. The torque on the shots. The angle the shots come in from. Tyson had so much torque he left his feet while unwinding into someone on an uppercut. (I remember an analysis where they slo-mo'ed him uncoiling on a guy from a crouch. It was something to see)

But granted, I'd say they are close. Neither are really much beyond the other.

b

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
Tyson had so much torque he left his feet while unwinding into someone on an uppercut.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats cuz hes 3 feet tall /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand what you mean. People said the same thing about De la Hoya, who also started changing his style and his trainers to become more well-rounded and started having more trouble because of it -- which led him to try even more changes, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Del la hoyas problem was he kept moving up in weight class. He could've dominated indefinitely had he not moved up so far.

Same could be said for Roy Jones Jr. He could rule the middle-light heavy for a long while. He had some other issues though. Like not going full out on every fight. Which is a recipe for a fighter to get hurt.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tyson had so much torque he left his feet while unwinding into someone on an uppercut.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats cuz hes 3 feet tall /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is why he should've never attempted to incorporate a jab into his arsenal.

b

[Blarg]

And because his arms are so damn short and his trunk is so wide. The power transfer from his core out to his fists doesn't have a lot of time to get lost or go wrong along the way. His whole body really moves as a single unit.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]


Same could be said for Roy Jones Jr. He could rule the middle-light heavy for a long while. He had some other issues though. Like not going full out on every fight. Which is a recipe for a fighter to get hurt.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, I really wish jones would have had some really high quality opponents in the lighter weight classes, it would have been really something to see how good he could have been if challenged. Tho like you said, he still had that whole mental thing, and dunno how that would have worked out for him, but maybe a worthy adversary would have nipped that in the bud.

[bernie]

Yeah, he pretty much destroyed those divisions while he was in them. He had freakish punching power for those divisions.

b

[Blarg]

I remember in one of the Holyfield fights, he jabbed out and it was damn fast, but Holyfield slipped it very easily and seemed thoroughly unimpressed with it, and Mike looked absolutely shocked it hadn't landed. It was like he KNEW that jab was going to land. But it didn't. Tyson was really doing the best he could do. But at that caliber of fighting, it wasn't enough. Even a really good jab wasn't enough. It had to be an excellent, outstanding jab. And it wasn't.

I think I saw a look of dawning desperation, panic, and refusal to believe this could be happening to him in Mike's face right then. He just couldn't handle it, and looked like a fish out of water in an arena he was used to controlling. When his best was shrugged off so casually, I think Mike's world fell in on him big-time. He hadn't just been punched out, but suddenly he was in a different world, and it wasn't easy for him anymore. And he didn't know what to do, and couldn't handle it.

That was my impression at the time. A lot seemed to happen to Mike in that moment.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I remember in one of the Holyfield fights, he jabbed out and it was damn fast, but Holyfield slipped it very easily and seemed thoroughly unimpressed with it, and Mike looked absolutely shocked it hadn't landed. It was like he KNEW that jab was going to land. But it didn't. Tyson was really doing the best he could do. But at that caliber of fighting, it wasn't enough. Even a really good jab wasn't enough. It had to be an excellent, outstanding jab. And it wasn't.

I think I saw a look of dawning desperation, panic, and refusal to believe this could be happening to him in Mike's face right then. He just couldn't handle it, and looked like a fish out of water in an arena he was used to controlling. When his best was shrugged off so casually, I think Mike's world fell in on him big-time. He hadn't just been punched out, but suddenly he was in a different world, and it wasn't easy for him anymore. And he didn't know what to do, and couldn't handle it.

That was my impression at the time. A lot seemed to happen to Mike in that moment.

[/ QUOTE ]

You need reach to have an effective jab. Larry Holmes made a career out of his jab. A jab he learned in sparring with Ali. Tyson, like Marciano, doesn't have the reach required. Both had to either take a shot (marciano) or be quick at dodging (tyson) to get in and do damage.

Tyson throwing a jab was a joke to watch. He very well could've realized he forgot how to fight the way that used to be the most effective.

b

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
one thing that people overlook with tyson is his mental drive. i spent two years boxing in high school, at an all black gym where i was picked on and made fun of (the gym was in detroit and i was one of two white kids to go there), but when i would get in the ring to spar a whole different side of me came out. i was pissed at these people and wanted nothing more than to kill them. i was in the zone and felt untouchable. if i felt anything like tyson felt when he got in the ring during his prime then i can easily see him holding his own vs. any boxer who you named.

[/ QUOTE ]
Cause Marciano and Ali didn't really care if they won or lost each fight. They just knew that if they fought enough fights to reach the long run, they'd be overall winners.

[Senor Cardgage]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You don't have to post it. This stuff is beyond repetitive and clutters the forum.

There have been lots of boxing threads in which the best ever have been discussed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pardon me, Mr. Moderator.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I understand what you mean. People said the same thing about De la Hoya, who also started changing his style and his trainers to become more well-rounded and started having more trouble because of it -- which led him to try even more changes, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Del la hoyas problem was he kept moving up in weight class. He could've dominated indefinitely had he not moved up so far.

Same could be said for Roy Jones Jr. He could rule the middle-light heavy for a long while. He had some other issues though. Like not going full out on every fight. Which is a recipe for a fighter to get hurt.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't know which post of yours to respond to so I picked this one, which to me shows the flaw in your thinking.

You seem to glamorize these guys and think that because they are brilliant for a short time that they are unbeatable. De La Hoya to his credit takes on all comers, but when was the last time he won a real fight? He moved up? Sure, but it's not like there aren't some awesome fighters in lower weight classes. The great ones move up, and win. De La Hoya isn't great, though he was very good in a great era.

Roy Jones might've used the "took them lightly" excuse once, but twice means he got beat by a better fighter. He *could've* been an all-time great but since he ducked everyone in his prime, we'll never know. Old Man Hopkins would crush him right now.

And as for Mike, you seem to think that you can arbitrarily take a narrow period of time, in this case Mike under Cus, and say "that's his entire career" and how he should be judged. But it wasn't, and he certainly never fought ANYONE meaningful. Heck, take every fight from Douglas on, including the butt-kicking by Douglas, the two life-and-death performances against Razor Ruddock, two more butt-kickings by Holyfield, and you see the bigger problem for him. Not that he was trying to jab. That he finally fought people who weren't terrified of him. I'm not going to argue it further, but his fights against Ruddock and Buster merely showed what was later confirmed against Holyfield. Overrated bully.

Here's who Tyson fought while Cus was alive

1985
Mar. 6 -- Hector Mercedes, Albany, N.Y., TKO 1
Apr. 10 -- Trent Singleton, Albany, N.Y., TKO 1
May 23 -- Don Halpern, Albany, N.Y., KO 4
June 20 -- Rick Spain, Atlantic City, N.J., KO 1
July 11 -- John Alderson, Atlantic City, N.J., TKO 2
July 19 -- Larry Sims, Poughkeepsie, N.Y., KO 3
Aug. 15 -- Lorenzo Canady, Atlantic City, N.J., TKO 1
Sept. 5 -- Michael Johnson, Atlantic City, N.J., KO 1
Oct. 9 -- Donnie Long, Atlantic City, N.J., KO 1
Oct. 25 -- Robert Colay, Atlantic City, N.J., KO 1
Nov. 1 -- Sterling Benjamin, Latham, N.Y., TKO 1

That's it.

[hoyaboy1]

Who exactly did Jones duck in his prime? He didn't always go out of his way to get fights with solid but nothing special fighters, but it wasn't like he was avoiding studs. He did beat Toney and Hopkins.

He is still an all-time great (top 50 all time pound for pound), even though he got old overnight.

[Toro]

Surprised this thread got bumped. The new Moderator when he was only the wannabe moderator didn't approve of it.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Surprised this thread got bumped. The new Moderator when he was only the wannabe moderator didn't approve of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It got bumped because it was relevant and should have stopped new threads.

Any old discussions should be bumped before new threads get started. It's way more efficient and less redundant. That's why the search function is so nice.

[IndieMatty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Surprised this thread got bumped. The new Moderator when he was only the wannabe moderator didn't approve of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It got bumped because it was relevant and should have stopped new threads.

Any old discussions should be bumped before new threads get started. It's way more efficient and less redundant. That's why the search function is so nice.

[/ QUOTE ]


I hate when people bitch about best of or especially repetitive threads. There's a ton of new people on here, and people who don't spend all day on here; if a thread is valuable to the forum community, people will post in it and reply, when it is no longer useful it will drop to the bottom.

Bitching about it makes no sense.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Surprised this thread got bumped. The new Moderator when he was only the wannabe moderator didn't approve of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It got bumped because it was relevant and should have stopped new threads.

Any old discussions should be bumped before new threads get started. It's way more efficient and less redundant. That's why the search function is so nice.

[/ QUOTE ]


I hate when people bitch about best of or especially repetitive threads. There's a ton of new people on here, and people who don't spend all day on here; if a thread is valuable to the forum community, people will post in it and reply, when it is no longer useful it will drop to the bottom.

Bitching about it makes no sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not bitching about it. I bumped it and saved lots of repetition. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Toro]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Surprised this thread got bumped. The new Moderator when he was only the wannabe moderator didn't approve of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It got bumped because it was relevant and should have stopped new threads.

Any old discussions should be bumped before new threads get started. It's way more efficient and less redundant. That's why the search function is so nice.

[/ QUOTE ]


I hate when people bitch about best of or especially repetitive threads. There's a ton of new people on here, and people who don't spend all day on here; if a thread is valuable to the forum community, people will post in it and reply, when it is no longer useful it will drop to the bottom.

Bitching about it makes no sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indy, you know I was the OP, right? And was giving the new mod a little tweak because he was the one bitching about my original post.

[IndieMatty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Surprised this thread got bumped. The new Moderator when he was only the wannabe moderator didn't approve of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It got bumped because it was relevant and should have stopped new threads.

Any old discussions should be bumped before new threads get started. It's way more efficient and less redundant. That's why the search function is so nice.

[/ QUOTE ]


I hate when people bitch about best of or especially repetitive threads. There's a ton of new people on here, and people who don't spend all day on here; if a thread is valuable to the forum community, people will post in it and reply, when it is no longer useful it will drop to the bottom.

Bitching about it makes no sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not bitching about it. I bumped it and saved lots of repetition. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I know. I was commenting on your commenting of the mod/mod

[IndieMatty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Surprised this thread got bumped. The new Moderator when he was only the wannabe moderator didn't approve of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It got bumped because it was relevant and should have stopped new threads.

Any old discussions should be bumped before new threads get started. It's way more efficient and less redundant. That's why the search function is so nice.

[/ QUOTE ]


I hate when people bitch about best of or especially repetitive threads. There's a ton of new people on here, and people who don't spend all day on here; if a thread is valuable to the forum community, people will post in it and reply, when it is no longer useful it will drop to the bottom.

Bitching about it makes no sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indy, you know I was the OP, right? And was giving the new mod a little tweak because he was the one bitching about my original post.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, yes I did. I just wanted to say that.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
You seem to glamorize these guys and think that because they are brilliant for a short time that they are unbeatable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I watched them and how they fought. Your argument is also flawed. Rarely is there ever a 'strong' division. Usually you might see 3, at best, really good fighters. Who are these fighters that are facing top quality oppoents fight after fight? Many times the divisions are weak. That's not the fighters problem.

[ QUOTE ]
Roy Jones might've used the "took them lightly" excuse once, but twice means he got beat by a better fighter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, he used that excuse in prefight interviews when fighting much less quality opponents. That's 'Pre-fight'. He said he wasn't going to go all out because he knew he would just be able to out box the guy so he wouldn't risk injury. I lost a little respect for him when I watched that.

Had De la hoya stayed at his original weight, or 1 weight above, he'd have taken on all comers. Who came after him that would've beat him? Same with Roy Jones.

[ QUOTE ]
And as for Mike, you seem to think that you can arbitrarily take a narrow period of time, in this case Mike under Cus, and say "that's his entire career" and how he should be judged.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said that's his entire career. Actually, I'm doing a counterargument since there's no telling what 'may have been' had Cus lived longer and if he stayed with his main corner guys. You can't say there wasn't a significant, noticeable change in Mike's style, discipline, etc, after Cus died along with after him firing Rooney. You're not that blind to seeing it.

[ QUOTE ]
But it wasn't, and he certainly never fought ANYONE meaningful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who didn't he fight in his division? That's not necesarily his fault it was a weak division. That can also be said for Marciano. However, I think many were avoiding Tyson than the other way around. Where were Bowe and Lewis? You're going to compare Lewis fighting Tyson after Tysons career is pretty much a joke to what the fight would've been like say 10 years earlier? C'mon.

[ QUOTE ]
Heck, take every fight from Douglas on, including the butt-kicking by Douglas, the two life-and-death performances against Razor Ruddock, two more butt-kickings by Holyfield, and you see the bigger problem for him. Not that he was trying to jab. That he finally fought people who weren't terrified of him. I'm not going to argue it further, but his fights against Ruddock and Buster merely showed what was later confirmed against Holyfield. Overrated bully.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tyson was not in his top form when he fought Douglas. His top 'image' form, maybe, but certainly not his top form. The remark about him throwing a jab, since you apparently missed it, was how he went away from his winning style of fighting for whatever reason. He abandoned the peek-a-boo style he perfected. To say Tyson had the exact same psychological make-up/focus during these fights as he had when Cus and rooney were in his corner is absurd.

Fact is, we'll never know how it might've been had things been different. But you can look a little deeper than just his record and who he fought when he was a total headcase with no direction. Your argument ignores alot of outside factors that do affect a fighter.

b