Japs Gooks Orientals, etc....

[bholdr]

Just thought i'd make a post to clear a few things up....

first of all, you may, here and in everyday life, call those from the east 'asians' or 'orientals' or 'rice eating slanty eyed yellow devils' for all i care.

...well, maybe not that last one.


but, it's NO BIG DEAL.

however... if you don't want to offend people (i don't), then the modern nomenclature for those folks is 'asian'' or 'asian american', if you MUST group all of them/us together. The word 'oriental' is, or may be, offensive for a variety of reasons.

1: 'oriental', these days, is moost commonly used to refer to objects, not people. eg, rugs, furniture, etc
2: when 'oriental' was a common term to describe people, those using it generally were using it in a racist context.
3: It's a dated term, like 'negro', and most asians see it as such.
4: mant 'orientals' feel that there are great differences between the vietnamese, chinese, thai, etc, and are P.O'd that 'whites', etc are unable to make those distinctions.

I WAS NOT trying to call anyone a racist, i was simply pointing out that, in order not to appear ignorant, the modern termonology should be applied. NO BIG DEAL.

A great nomber of posters seemed to think that i was nitpicking or trying to make a big fuss over a debatable term. i was not; but, of course, when challenged or insulted over my choice of words, i will respond.

sry if anyone found that offensive or overly sensitive. For the record, i am half-japanese, half-cacuasian, and am offended by being called an 'oriental'. I am proud of my heritage and don't like to see it belittled by having it grouped with a multitude of other races/peoples, unless it's only in geographic terms, then i can live with it, i geuss. NO BIG DEAL.

jeez, c'mon.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]

sry if anyone found that offensive or overly sensitive. For the record, i am half-japanese, half-cacuasian, and am offended by being called an 'oriental'. I am proud of my heritage and don't like to see it belittled by having it grouped with a multitude of other races/peoples, unless it's only in geographic terms, then i can live with it, i geuss. NO BIG DEAL.


[/ QUOTE ]

How, after all that, you still manage to make this ridiculous non-point is shocking to me. If you are offended by the term Oriental for this reason, you should be just as offended by Asian and insist on being called Japanese or Japanese-American or something. This just makes you sound like you're offended because you think you should be offended, but you don't really know why.

So, just to clarify for you, so you know when to be offended: Based on one of your key reasons for being offended by the term oriental, you should also be offended by the term asian. I think it's important for you to know this, lest you go around happily being called asian when in reality you are offended but don't quite realize that you are.

[bholdr]

so those that are offended by 'negro' should also be offended by 'african american'?

is this all you have to say? C'MON!

THERE IS A DIFFERENCE, it's your problem if you can't see it, not mine. i wasn't saying i was offended by ALL of my given POSSIBLE reasons. in fact i am most offended by the past usage and connotations behind the term 'oriental'

how can i be more clear?

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
so those that are offended by 'negro' should also be offended by 'african american'?

[/ QUOTE ]

If someone says they are offended by the term negro because they are of Kenyan ancestry and that lumps them in with those of Nigerian ancestry etc, then yes, they should be also be offended by african-american.

[ QUOTE ]
i wasn't saying i was offended by ALL of my given POSSIBLE reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

am offended by being called an 'oriental'. I am proud of my heritage and don't like to see it belittled by having it grouped with a multitude of other races/peoples

the reason why that term is offensive is that it reflects the (also dated) idea that all asians are the same, and that a white person couldn't be expected to tell the difference.

"asian" is fine, but "oriental"

[ QUOTE ]
how can i be more clear?

[/ QUOTE ]

You've been sufficiently clear.

[bholdr]

...and , by your reasoning, 'chicano', 'latino' and 'mexican' are interchangable?

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
...and , by your reasoning, 'chicano', 'latino' and 'mexican' are interchangable?

[/ QUOTE ]

What? You continue to make little sense.

[daryn]

bholdr.. you must realize what diablo is saying. if anything, asian is an even wider term that (should anyway) lumps in indians and some russians.

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]
If someone says they are offended by the term negro because they are of Kenyan ancestry and that lumps them in with those of Nigerian ancestry etc, then yes, they should be also be offended by african-american.

[/ QUOTE ]

that ISN"T why people are offended by the word 'negro'

and it IS NOT why I don't like the term 'oriental'


you should be able to see the distinction i am making, if not, you should work on it.

[bholdr]

...and you continue to be more concerned with making yor point than you are with learning anything. bye.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
if you don't want to offend people (i don't), then the modern nomenclature for those folks is 'asian'' or 'asian american'

[/ QUOTE ]

I will never refer to someone as 'asian-american' or 'afro-american'. I've always thought that was stupid and always will. Besides, the next 10 years THAT will be offensive anyways.

[ QUOTE ]
1: 'oriental', these days, is moost commonly used to refer to objects, not people. eg, rugs, furniture, etc

[/ QUOTE ]

It's always been used like this as it represents the east. Nothing's really changed.

[ QUOTE ]
3: It's a dated term, like 'negro', and most asians see it as such.

[/ QUOTE ]

So it becomes racial by expiration date? What is the expiration date on 'asians'? Please let us know ahead of time so we can await another word to use.

[ QUOTE ]
4: mant 'orientals' feel that there are great differences between the vietnamese, chinese, thai, etc, and are P.O'd that 'whites', etc are unable to make those distinctions

[/ QUOTE ]

Reflecting this back at you, can you tell the difference between many euro-nationalities by just looking at them? Doubt it.

[ QUOTE ]
For the record, i am half-japanese, half-cacuasian, and am offended by being called an 'oriental'.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shouldn't you only be half-offended? (That's a joke my buds wife, who's half-korean, gets a chuckle at. Especially when she told us that.)

[ QUOTE ]
I am proud of my heritage and don't like to see it belittled by having it grouped with a multitude of other races/peoples, unless it's only in geographic terms, then i can live with it, i geuss.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, if someone says it to you without knowing your stance on it, you'll still get upset? You won't give someone the benefit of the doubt about your inner feelings on it?

Really, it seems like you do have a 'big deal' about it.

b

[Michael Davis]

Have another drink. Life is easy.

-Michael

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]
bholdr.. you must realize what diablo is saying. if anything, asian is an even wider term that (should anyway) lumps in indians and some russians.

[/ QUOTE ]

...but 'asian' doesn't carry the negitive connotations that 'oriental' does. This is the point that i am trying (desperatly) to make!

I see El Diablo's point clearly, it's just that he's willfully ignoring the CONTEXT of the words in question, IMHO.


NO BIG DEAL!

[daryn]

dude, i think the whole "negative connotation" might just be in your head. are you insecure? anyone who gets seriously offended by a word, especially a pretty tame one, needs to relax.

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]
So, if someone says it to you without knowing your stance on it, you'll still get upset? You won't give someone the benefit of the doubt about your inner feelings on it?


[/ QUOTE ]

at 'oriental', yes. at 'asian' no. {edit} oops, missed your point- yes, i give people the benifit of the doubt. it's when they insist on still using the term after it's insensitivity has been brought to their attn that pisses me off.

[ QUOTE ]
So it becomes racial by expiration date?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes. much like the word 'Nigger'. this should be clear.

[ QUOTE ]
Shouldn't you only be half-offended?

[/ QUOTE ]
yes. unless i am called 'scrambled' (eggs, get it?)

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
'orientals' feel that there are great differences between the vietnamese, chinese, thai...

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
'whites', etc are unable to make those distinctions

[/ QUOTE ]

ruh uh

fim

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]
dude, i think the whole "negative connotation" might just be in your head. are you insecure? anyone who gets seriously offended by a word, especially a pretty tame one, needs to relax.

[/ QUOTE ]

am i insecure? no i don't think so. i mean, do you think i am? maybe i am. you don't really think i am, do you? i dunno...

no, i'm not insecure, nor am i white, nor am i 'oriental'. please stop implying that i am any of these things.



...and this post WAS an attempt to 'relax' the diolouge.

...and african americand need to relax about 'nigger'. and gays need to relax about '[censored]', and jews need to relax about, well, 'jew'. connotation is everything.

[Arm187r]

I never knew till reading today that oriental held negative connotations. What is this world coming to. I'll have to write my buddies stationed in Iraq to worry about calling people oriental(s). Since that is obviously something we should all be painfully concerned about in this country.

Arm187r

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I see El Diablo's point clearly, it's just that he's willfully ignoring the CONTEXT of the words in question, IMHO.


[/ QUOTE ]

WTF are you talking about? You are the one who initially responded: the reason why that term is offensive is that it reflects the (also dated) idea that all asians are the same, and that a white person couldn't be expected to tell the difference and then in this thread followed it up with am offended by being called an 'oriental'. I am proud of my heritage and don't like to see it belittled by having it grouped with a multitude of other races/peoples.

I am simply pointing out that for someone who made those statements, it is ridiculous to not also be offended by the term asian. Others like Michael have already clearly and articulately made the point you now claim to be trying to make.

As for your irrelevant statements re: negro/african-american and chicano/latino/etc. Consider if a black guy were to say "I am really offended by the word nigger because I can't stand being called words that are six letters long." Well, this guy should be just as offended when someone calls him "mister." If I point that out to him, that is not implying that "nigger" and "mister" are equally offensive terms. It is simply implying that they are equally offensive to people offended for that particular reason.

[Michael Davis]

Yeah, perhaps we should all immediately shut off our computers and do, um, something, since there are more important things in the world like fighting a war.

-Michael

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
...and african americand need to relax about 'nigger'. and gays need to relax about '[censored]', and jews need to relax about, well, 'jew'. connotation is everything.

[/ QUOTE ]


whoa, so we agree?

[bholdr]

...mayyyybe?

remember, i've been druinking, no subtlety, please.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, if someone says it to you without knowing your stance on it, you'll still get upset? You won't give someone the benefit of the doubt about your inner feelings on it?



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



at 'oriental', yes. at 'asian' no.


[/ QUOTE ]

Then you have the problem. The other person doesn't know better. Ill agree with daryn. Don't let a word bend you out of shape.

[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So it becomes racial by expiration date?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



yes. much like the word 'Nigger'. this should be clear.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will venture to say, oriental is not nearly as big a powderkeg as nigger. Their meanings are derived from very different backgrounds.

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shouldn't you only be half-offended?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


yes. unless i am called 'scrambled' (eggs, get it?)

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

b

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
'orientals' feel that there are great differences between the vietnamese, chinese, thai...

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
'whites', etc are unable to make those distinctions

[/ QUOTE ]

ruh uh

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

DING!

[bholdr]

you've taken two half-quotes and strung them together to make your point.

I said:

"I am proud of my heritage and don't like to see it belittled by having it grouped with a multitude of other races/peoples...."

but i didn't stop there...

"...unless it's only in geographic terms, then i can live with it, i geuss."

you should be a political consultant, so deft are your miscontextualizations.

jeez.

[Michael Davis]

You're drunk, can't spell for crap, and you have used the words subtlety, deft, and miscontextualization. Nice.

-Michael

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]
Then you have the problem. The other person doesn't know better. Ill agree with daryn. Don't let a word bend you out of shape.

[/ QUOTE ]

see my edit of my first response to you.


[ QUOTE ]
I will venture to say, oriental is not nearly as big a powderkeg as nigger. Their meanings are derived from very different backgrounds.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's not, you're right. but that's only a rationalization.

[bholdr]

the drunker i get the wordier... wordyr...

more wordy i become.

[bholdr]

it's in 'qoute marks' for a reason, diablo.
&lt;sigh&gt;

[Ulysses]

It's comical that you continue to defend your ridiculous non-point.

[bholdr]

I really find it hard to beilieve that you don't get it. As you're obviously an intillegent and rational person, and a respected poster,, i will look at my post again tommorow in the blinding light of sobriety and reconsider my logic.

...but for now...

you really don't see the distinction i am making? really?


i mean, C'mon! really?

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
you really don't see the distinction i am making? really?


[/ QUOTE ]


no.

i don't see how there is anything derogatory about "oriental".

i do see something very wrong with n-

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't see how there is anything derogatory about "oriental".... n-

[/ QUOTE ]

well... i'll admit that it's apples and oranges, to some degree.

but, 'oriental' is the word that 'white' imperialists (such as commodore Perry form the american side, and the entire british empire) used to denote asians for a good long time, and they used the term to describe what they felt was an inferior race. i'm not saying that those that use the term now are using it in the same way, but it does reflect an atavistic mode of thinking, and it's not THAT hard to change, really.

like i've been saying: context.

but if you still disaggree, oh well. just call 'em whatever you want, nobody's gonna go nuts. (unless you call a korean a jap, then get ready to eat some shoe)


MAN! this thread has cost me a lot of money (assuming that i'd be winning in my inebreiated condition). not as much as you.... but i was planning on finishing some cryptos tonight. &lt;sigh&gt; next month, i geuss.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

http://www.maximonline.com/girls/elisha_cuthbert/gm_l3.jpg

This is a hot chicks thread, right?

[B Dids]

You really lost this one. Hopefully you will realize this later. I'd wager Diablo understands EXACTLY why the term "Oriental" is offensive, he's just taking issue with your lousy argument and logic.

[tyfromm]

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.maximonline.com/girls/elisha_cuthbert/gm_l3.jpg

This is a hot chicks thread, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

All threads are, but this thread is for Jap and Gook babes only man. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[droolie]

[ QUOTE ]
You really lost this one. Hopefully you will realize this later. I'd wager Diablo understands EXACTLY why the term "Oriental" is offensive, he's just taking issue with your lousy argument and logic.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the key thing to understand is that a group of people should be able to be labeled how ever they want regardless of how little sense it makes.

It's interesting how groups of people want to be responsible for their labels. If you think about most of the modern labels they are ones chosen by the groups themselves to replace the labels attached to them by others. Asian being prefered to oriental is just the latest example. The guy who started this thread is of course correct that "oriental" is now considered an offensive term by most of the people who fall in that group. The fact that asian is not any more descriptive and is actually slightly less specific doesn't matter. All that matters is that they get to choose how they want to be labeled. I think part of the reason why oriental is offensive is that it has been applied to too many people who do no consider themselves oriental. After a while it becomes insulting to be lumped with people who are technically oriental when you are not. Eventually nobody is satisfied with the label. At least asian does not suffer that problem at present. It is broad enough that not many people can quibble over being incorrectly labeled as such. My guess is that asian will be discarded as an acceptile label before too long.

I work with retards. Of course that is not what they prefer to be called. However society has deemed calling them retards and even mongoloids acceptible as recently as 30 years ago. In the ten years I've been in this field I have seen the accepted label change three times. The term that is currently most acceptible is "adults with intellectual disabilities" or "adults with ID" for short . I'd be willing to bet none of you knew that. The amount of consideration that has gone into each permutation of the label is amazing. It was "adults with develpmental disabilities" as recently as last two years ago. Before that is was "adults with mental retardation" and before that it was "mentally retarded adults". As you can see each labels is an improvement over the previous. The important thing was that the group of people who were being given these labels got to decide what was better.

The label african american is temporary too. I work with many "blacks" but few of them are actually african americans. They are actually african africans. Bend your mind around the fact that that label somehow seems correct to me. We as a society have gone terribly astray when we are labeling someone an african african.

[Victor]

i like the term zontals the best

[Wayfare]

I was never offended by someone calling me oriental until I heard that it was offensive.

I would guess that terms like negro, black, colored suffered the same treatment. It really should only offend you if the person is being consciously insensitive.

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
You really lost this one. Hopefully you will realize this later. I'd wager Diablo understands EXACTLY why the term "Oriental" is offensive, he's just taking issue with your lousy argument and logic.

[/ QUOTE ]

the reason this isn't/wasn't obvious to bholdr from the get-go is that for as good as he thinks he is at "arguing," he flat out sucks at "listening."

[Wayfare]

But most people suck at listening when they are really drunk. I'm inclined to give my Jap-halfie brother another chance.

[KowCiller]

[ QUOTE ]
when 'oriental' was a common term to describe people, those using it generally were using it in a racist context.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if I have much to add to this thread (or if it's even worth it), but I have a good chinese friend whose mother repeatedly refers to themselves as Orientals. It offends my friend and she repeatedly tells her mom and grandmother that they are not rugs or lamps or some other object.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is this is definitely a younger generation hang-up. I guess you could argue that my friend's mother is fine with referring to herself as oriental similar to the way many afro-americans refer to themselves as n-...But I can't really see that from a 55+ yr old chinese woman.

And as others have clearly noted, El Diablo's whole point is that if you are offended for the reasons provided, you should be consistent across the board with your feelings.

KoW

[Sephus]

thats an excuse if he's wasted 24/7.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
4: mant 'orientals' feel that there are great differences between the vietnamese, chinese, thai, etc, and are P.O'd that 'whites', etc are unable to make those distinctions.

[/ QUOTE ]

As a white guy, if you lined up a bunch of caucasions from various contries its unlikely I would get them all correct. I certainly don't expect other races to.

[apd138]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4: mant 'orientals' feel that there are great differences between the vietnamese, chinese, thai, etc, and are P.O'd that 'whites', etc are unable to make those distinctions.

[/ QUOTE ]

As a white guy, if you lined up a bunch of caucasions from various contries its unlikely I would get them all correct. I certainly don't expect other races to.

[/ QUOTE ]I'd venture to guess this could be said of any race, especially ones with little or no geographic space between them such as in Europe.

[Wayfare]

But white guys, especially in America, don't hate each other nearly as much as Asians hate other Asians.

[M2d]

[ QUOTE ]
But white guys, especially in America, don't hate each other nearly as much as Asians hate other Asians.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to get all caught up in the thread, but this statement really trivializes a lot of the tension between the different asian races.

you can't compare "white" and "asian" culture in the US. Not on a thing like this. a more accurate portrayal would be the tension between different white groups (irish, italian, jewish, etc) in new york in the early part of the 20th century.

Today, many asians are at or close to their immigration generation. the beefs they have with other nationalities are rooted in beefs that they had back in their old country. serious ones. Ones like "that country invaded mine and forced us to refugee camps". or "they raped, murdered and pillaged our village and forced us out of our homeland". There's a reason you don't see Vietnamese and Thais hanging out much.

White people in this country, for the most part, have had enough time to blend in and assimilate. they don't have these stesses from the old country hanging over their heads because, often, they were born here as were their parents. What does that leave them to quibble about? who should have made all county in '95 and who made it but shouldn't have?

As personal example, I'm Japanese from Hawaii (yonsei). My wife is Chinese, first generation born in the US. Her parents hated me at first (they came around because I'm such a great guy, but that's another story full of ass kissing and ultra politeness). They'd been chased out of their home village by japanese soldiers. they lived through the horrors that I skimmed over in my world history classes in high school. when they saw me, I couldn't really blame them for immediately associating me with those times because of my races.
from the other side, though, I was clueless. My grandparents were born in Hawaii. when the atrocities were occuring, my grandfather was fishing on a little boat off of the big island. My other grandfather was shooting pool in some seedy joint in downtown honolulu.

you have to try to put yourself in the other guy's shoes. sometimes there's a reason the other guy wants nothing to do with you. usually, if you think about it, you can figure out why.

[oddjob]

[ QUOTE ]
dude, i think the whole "negative connotation" might just be in your head. are you insecure? anyone who gets seriously offended by a word, especially a pretty tame one, needs to relax.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is quite true. they're just words. who cares if someone calls you an oriental.

to restress some other points made. there is no bad conotation. it is someone from the orient. everyone knows where the orient is. asia ecompasses much more then chinese, japanese, koreans, vietnames, etc. etc. asia is a continent.

i prefer ching chong mother fucker, if you're going to call me something. or if you're so inclined. slant eyed ching chong kung fu fighting mother fucker (something a friend was called once in a fight)

words mean something only if you let them mean anything. why expend the energy to get upset about them.

to me it seems like oriental was deemed offensive in some kind of white man's workplace sensitivity training video.

and yes i am actually a ching chong mother fucker. well i'm korean, so i'm actually a gook. koreans were actually called this from the korean war, and the vietnamese stole this term of endearment.

[oddjob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4: mant 'orientals' feel that there are great differences between the vietnamese, chinese, thai, etc, and are P.O'd that 'whites', etc are unable to make those distinctions.

[/ QUOTE ]

As a white guy, if you lined up a bunch of caucasions from various contries its unlikely I would get them all correct. I certainly don't expect other races to.

[/ QUOTE ]

you whiteys do look alike to us.

[bisonbison]

I think ElD has found a chink in your argument.

[M2d]

Yeah, he should nip it in the bud

[Ulysses]

That's an interesting slant on the issue.

[sfer]

Me rikey you guys. You make me rahf.

On a side note, the antics of myself, bdk3clash, sthief and others have spread to the point where everyone at the local cardbarn calls out, "FRUSH!"

[M2d]

Frush? wat da fruck's a frush?

[jcx]

"With my right foot I could kick out that knife. With my left, I could kick your nose. With this hand I could poke out your eyes. And with this one I could break your neck. Look into my eyes, I am an Oriental."

[AngryCola]

I could make a long post about this issue, but instead I'll just say -

Yeah, what El Diablo said.

Silly person.

[M2d]

that was a damned funny movie. forgot about it. Now I have to check e-bay to see if i can find it for sale.

[daryn]

this whole issue is a slippery slope.

[M2d]

nice

[Ulysses]

Two random web pages

Oriental (http://www.attackmachine.com/ripvanprelutsky.htm)

What's in a name (http://www.igeek.com/articles/Politics/General/Whatsinaname.txt)

FYI, I didn't read these, just skimmed them briefly. So, they might be stupid.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
are you insecure? anyone who gets seriously offended by a word, especially a pretty tame one, needs to relax.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with you Daryn..

Also, I think why many East Asians have assimilated to our culture so quickly is with their readiness to chill out and focus on more important matters.

[bholdr]

i fully aggree, daryn. i had no idea people were so attached to the word 'oriental'

i was only trying to point out that it's just dated nomenclature, and some asians doon't like being called that anymore.

[bholdr]

like i've been trying to say: NO BIG DEAL, i was only trying to point out that the word 'oriental' is dated nomenclature. what's so hard about that? I had no idea people were so attached to the word.

sry if my explanation was a bit ham-fisted.