WTF, 10+1's super tight

[splashpot]

I just played 3 in a row where 8 people made it to level 5!!! None of which I placed in. My strategy requires me to lay low at the beginning thus resulting in me being short stacked by the time level 5 hits. Normally this is fine since there are only 3-4 players left by this time and I can switch to ultra aggressive mode. But against 7 other players, my all in raises do not have nearly the same folding equity as they used to. Anyone else having this same problem? How are you dealing with it?

[spentrent]

- Lower your pre-flop limping standards in the CO and on the button.

- Buy the button with limpers in front of you.

- Widen the gap earlier.

- Represent strength when the villain is uber-tight.

- Bluff with bets that look like you're trying to lure action.

- SHANIA!!! *thanks Unarmed* http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=533592&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&vc=1


Now we're playing poker, not Push The Aces(tm)!

[AleoMagus]

Thanks for that link. Anyone who did not bother to click on it should do so now.

And to the original poster, I agree, 10+1 to 30+3 have tightened up considerably in the past six months (ish). This desn't mean that these guys are playing well though, just tighter. All of spentrent's suggestions are good. I would not worry too much about the shortstacked problem so long as you are still tending to increase your stack even slightly.

By this I mean that as long as you do tend to move past the 800 point by level 4 (on average) you still should be ok. I personally do not consider a 800 stack shortstacked (almost ever!)

That said, I believe acheivable ROI in these games has gone down, but probably not by much.

Regards
Brad S

[Mr_J]

"I agree, 10+1 to 30+3 have tightened up considerably in the past six months (ish)"

Wow I'd love to see what they were like then. I've had 3-4 games over the last 2 days where there have been just 3-4 of us left during or before level 4. One was 3 left in level 3. Had some long ones though where it's been 8 handed in level 5.

[rachelwxm]

I played one game last night when we are 4 handed 6 hands into level 9. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[El Maximo]

I agree also that the texture of the game has changed. Tighter and more passive. It's rare now to get a 3 way all-in on level 1. But on the upside they are much less willing to call steal raises and pushes. My stack is typically around 700 on level 4. With some good aggression you should be able to build a nice stack quickly. My ROI has been holding steady over the past 2 months. I did get a few wild tables last night. Was the first time in weeks that I was down to 5 people by level 4.

[rachelwxm]

[ QUOTE ]
- Lower your pre-flop limping standards in the CO and on the button.


[/ QUOTE ]

I am having a little trouble adjusting this. Let's say 6 handed 10bb everyone, two limper to you on button, you have something like KJo, you limp here?

[J-Lo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
- Lower your pre-flop limping standards in the CO and on the button.


[/ QUOTE ]

I am having a little trouble adjusting this. Let's say 6 handed 10bb everyone, two limper to you on button, you have something like KJo, you limp here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Push and increase your stack by 35%

[rachelwxm]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
- Lower your pre-flop limping standards in the CO and on the button.


[/ QUOTE ]

I am having a little trouble adjusting this. Let's say 6 handed 10bb everyone, two limper to you on button, you have something like KJo, you limp here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Push and increase your stack by 35%

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, did anybody has a lot of success with such move?

[Scuba Chuck]

I agree with Rachels response. that seems awfully foolish. Not aggressive.

[ QUOTE ]

- Lower your pre-flop limping standards in the CO and on the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's discuss. What kind of hands do you consider lowering to? I'm sure AQo is agreeable. What about AJs or KQs? What about suited connectors?

[ QUOTE ]

- Buy the button with limpers in front of you.


[/ QUOTE ]

How do you do this with less risk than pushing?

[ QUOTE ]
- Widen the gap earlier.

[/ QUOTE ]

That makes a lot of sense, to begin applying gap concepts in level 3. Unfortunately, getting called can be painful. Perhaps the reverse is smarter. Calling those trying to "steal."

[ QUOTE ]
- Represent strength when the villain is uber-tight.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, reading skills. Are you going to teach? I know there are many signs of weakness, from players. But you first have to identify a tight player. Avoid loose players here.

[ QUOTE ]
- Bluff with bets that look like you're trying to lure action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great advice. I'd like to hear more discussion about this. Particularly focusing on number of players, position, and texture of the flop. Particularly position. I find that a button bet is respected less than an EP bet.

[Scuba Chuck]

Okay, here's my first example of trying to pickup pots early on these tight tables.

***** Hand History for Game 1525314885 *****
15/30 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 9183725) - Tue Feb 01 13:29:39 EST 2005
Table Table 11210 (Real Money) -- Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: Scuba_Chuck (785)
Seat 2: sbarkley (800)
Seat 3: fireman712 (865)
Seat 4: Feekee (840)
Seat 5: secondpair (745)
Seat 6: Penfield (755)
Seat 7: livsi (380)
Seat 8: jonaz1 (975)
Seat 9: lucca2002 (1125)
Seat 10: jpkim (730)
Scuba_Chuck posts small blind (10)
sbarkley posts big blind (15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuck [ Jh, 3h ]
I actually normally fold this, and keep my 5 chips. - Maybe that's a leak?
fireman712 folds.
Feekee folds.
secondpair folds.
Penfield folds.
livsi folds.
jonaz1 folds.
lucca2002 folds.
jpkim folds.
Scuba_Chuck calls (5)
sbarkley checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Qc, 9c, 3s ]
Scuba_Chuck bets (30)
I only bet here because I read this thread.

sbarkley calls (30)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Kc ]
Scuba_Chuck bets (60)
Either he thinks I have a flush draw, or he doesn't
What principles have I applied here?
I am representing some strength with the first bet, pot building. I'm not trying to buy the pot with 30 chips
I am bluffing with a bet, 60 chips, that appears to be trying to lure some action.

sbarkley folds.
** Summary **
Main Pot: 150
Board: [ Qc 9c 3s Kc ]
Scuba_Chuck balance 830, bet 105, collected 150, net +45
sbarkley balance 755, lost 45 (folded)
fireman712 balance 865, didn't bet (folded)
Feekee balance 840, didn't bet (folded)
secondpair balance 745, didn't bet (folded)
Penfield balance 755, didn't bet (folded)
livsi balance 380, didn't bet (folded)
jonaz1 balance 975, didn't bet (folded)
lucca2002 balance 1125, didn't bet (folded)
jpkim balance 730, didn't bet (folded)

[Scuba Chuck]

Ok, here's three more. These scare the hell out of me. But they worked all three times. I am only posting this as I find this thread counter-intuitive to everything I've read here. But I am a sponge to learn more. I know that when the table is tight, you're supposed to loosen up, I just don't know how. So I'm trying these out in front of the class.

Two more thoughts. Do you continue to try and build your chip stack, or do you slow down, and revert back to your A-game once you reach a certain point?

Also, I am concerned about table image. I was checkraised in one example - in which I folded. I am also in too many hands, IMO. Any thoughts as to how this will affect blind stealing?

Take a look at the third HH below. Is this dumb or what?

***** Hand History for Game 1525324505 *****
30/60 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 9183723) - Tue Feb 01 13:32:51 EST 2005
Table Table 11271 (Real Money) -- Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: rmont527 (2245)
Seat 2: nathsuda (815)
Seat 3: BAD69BILL (260)
Seat 4: Nygblue92 (695)
Seat 5: raaasputin (365)
Seat 7: Scuba_Chuck (775)
Seat 8: areinke (1250)
Seat 9: dave65882 (980)
Seat 10: ShaolinAllen (615)
BAD69BILL posts small blind (15)
Nygblue92 posts big blind (30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuck [ Ac, Qs ]
raaasputin folds.
Scuba_Chuck calls (30)
areinke folds.
dave65882 folds.
ShaolinAllen folds.
rmont527 calls (30)
nathsuda folds.
BAD69BILL calls (15)
Nygblue92 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 2c, 9h, 3d ]
BAD69BILL checks.
Nygblue92 checks.
Scuba_Chuck bets (60)
rmont527 folds.
BAD69BILL folds.
Nygblue92 folds.
** Summary **
Main Pot: 180
Board: [ 2c 9h 3d ]
rmont527 balance 2215, lost 30 (folded)
nathsuda balance 815, didn't bet (folded)
BAD69BILL balance 230, lost 30 (folded)
Nygblue92 balance 665, lost 30 (folded)
raaasputin balance 365, didn't bet (folded)
Scuba_Chuck balance 865, bet 90, collected 180, net +90
areinke balance 1250, didn't bet (folded)
dave65882 balance 980, didn't bet (folded)
ShaolinAllen balance 615, didn't bet (folded)

***** Hand History for Game 1525327421 *****
30/60 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 9183725) - Tue Feb 01 13:33:50 EST 2005
Table Table 11210 (Real Money) -- Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: Scuba_Chuck (830)
Seat 2: sbarkley (740)
Seat 3: fireman712 (835)
Seat 4: Feekee (795)
Seat 5: secondpair (965)
Seat 6: Penfield (815)
Seat 7: livsi (365)
Seat 8: jonaz1 (915)
Seat 9: lucca2002 (1010)
Seat 10: jpkim (730)
secondpair posts small blind (15)
Penfield posts big blind (30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuck [ 6h, 5h ]
livsi folds.
jonaz1 folds.
lucca2002 folds.
jpkim folds.
Scuba_Chuck calls (30)
sbarkley folds.
fireman712 calls (30)
Feekee calls (30)
secondpair calls (15)
Penfield checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 4h, 3d, Ah ]
secondpair checks.
Penfield checks.
Scuba_Chuck checks.
fireman712 checks.
Feekee checks.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 9c ]
secondpair checks.
Penfield checks.
Scuba_Chuck bets (50)
fireman712 folds.
Feekee folds.
secondpair folds.
Penfield folds.
** Summary **
Main Pot: 200
Board: [ 4h 3d Ah 9c ]
Scuba_Chuck balance 950, bet 80, collected 200, net +120
sbarkley balance 740, didn't bet (folded)
fireman712 balance 805, lost 30 (folded)
Feekee balance 765, lost 30 (folded)
secondpair balance 935, lost 30 (folded)
Penfield balance 785, lost 30 (folded)
livsi balance 365, didn't bet (folded)
jonaz1 balance 915, didn't bet (folded)
lucca2002 balance 1010, didn't bet (folded)
jpkim balance 730, didn't bet (folded)

***** Hand History for Game 1525351266 *****
raaasputin finished in eighth place.
raaasputin: yoiu lucky
50/100 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 9183723) - Tue Feb 01 13:41:49 EST 2005
Table Table 11271 (Real Money) -- Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 1: rmont527 (2215)
Seat 2: nathsuda (900)
Seat 4: Nygblue92 (600)
Seat 7: Scuba_Chuck (775)
Seat 8: areinke (1820)
Seat 9: dave65882 (920)
Seat 10: ShaolinAllen (770)
Nygblue92 posts small blind (25)
Scuba_Chuck posts big blind (50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuck [ Kc, Qd ]
raaasputin: bitch
areinke: you are careless
areinke folds.
dave65882 folds.
ShaolinAllen folds.
raaasputin: youre careless you got runner runner to beat me
rmont527 calls (50)
nathsuda raises (100) to 100
Nygblue92 folds.
raaasputin: i put you on high cards and was right
Scuba_Chuck calls (50)
rmont527 calls (50)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 3h, 6d, 7h ]
areinke: true, you called to river earlier w/ ace high so i called you here
Scuba_Chuck checks.
rmont527 checks.
nathsuda bets (50)
Scuba_Chuck calls (50)
rmont527 calls (50)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Ks ]
areinke: did it to urself
Scuba_Chuck checks.
rmont527 checks.
nathsuda bets (125)
Scuba_Chuck calls (125)
rmont527 folds.
** Dealing River ** : [ 4h ]
Scuba_Chuck bets (350)
nathsuda folds.
** Summary **
Main Pot: 1075
Board: [ 3h 6d 7h Ks 4h ]
rmont527 balance 2065, lost 150 (folded)
nathsuda balance 625, lost 275 (folded)
Nygblue92 balance 575, lost 25 (folded)
Scuba_Chuck balance 1225, bet 625, collected 1075, net +450
areinke balance 1820, didn't bet (folded)
dave65882 balance 920, didn't bet (folded)
ShaolinAllen balance 770, didn't bet (folded)

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

- Lower your pre-flop limping standards in the CO and on the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's discuss. What kind of hands do you consider lowering to? I'm sure AQo is agreeable. What about AJs or KQs? What about suited connectors?

[/ QUOTE ]

AQs|AQo|AJs|KQs|SCs all seem like good contenders. If set-in-stone rules magically won poker games for you, everyone would break even. It's just a simple conclusion that as the skill of the villains increases, the hero needs to do some things that are counter-intuitive to his opponents.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

- Buy the button with limpers in front of you.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you do this with less risk than pushing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Eek, maybe min-raise in the CO with 2 limpers in front. Every table is different. When I'm playing 4 tables it becomes pretty apparent which ones have a tighter texture without having to rely on ESP.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

- Widen the gap earlier.

[/ QUOTE ]

That makes a lot of sense, to begin applying gap concepts in level 3. Unfortunately, getting called can be painful. Perhaps the reverse is smarter. Calling those trying to "steal."

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting called isn't painful! Remember Shania such that whenever you raise, you have the right to represent AA|KK|QQ|JJ|AK. And a miracle flop at the 10s will provide for killer implied odds when that KQs open-raise sees a straight and/or flush draw.

You can also buy a free river by leading/raising on the flop, hmmmmmmm?

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

- Represent strength when the villain is uber-tight.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, reading skills. Are you going to teach? I know there are many signs of weakness, from players. But you first have to identify a tight player. Avoid loose players here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain raises pre-flop in early/middle position. Rags flop. Villain check/folds. One sign of weaky weakness. Probably sez to himself "I just made a GREAT laydown and THAT's why I'm better than all these monkeys."

Now you think of a scenario and let's make a list.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

- Bluff with bets that look like you're trying to lure action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great advice. I'd like to hear more discussion about this. Particularly focusing on number of players, position, and texture of the flop. Particularly position. I find that a button bet is respected less than an EP bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

If we could build a list of commandments for every situation, we could program a kick-ass bot and make a mint. It just comes down to playing the player, not the cards.

Now, I'm not a super-skilled poker vet. I've just recently hit a sublime state of confidence and poker zen in the last few months because I'm finally "cracking the nut" as they say on the 20s. These are just some of my observations, YMMV.

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I am concerned about table image. I was checkraised in one example - in which I folded. I am also in too many hands, IMO. Any thoughts as to how this will affect blind stealing?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you feel like you're in too many hands, then maybe you are! That check-raise is kinda like when a baseball coach screams at the ump for a bad call. The ump remembers. You're the ump, settle down, keep your DAMN EYES OPEN BLUE!

One reason you might feel that way is that you are lowering your limping standards. Now, you don't have to limp with marginal hands EVERY time you're in LP. Think of the game as a delicious entree and your LP limps as the cayenne pepper.

[nyc999]

[ QUOTE ]

raaasputin finished in eighth place.
raaasputin: yoiu lucky
raaasputin: bitch
areinke: you are careless
raaasputin: youre careless you got runner runner to beat me
raaasputin: i put you on high cards and was right


[/ QUOTE ]

I want to see this hand history!

[sofere]

A point has been made earlier which I think is key. The texture has gotten tighter, but the players haven't necessarily gotten better.

I find that the texture went from a loose-aggresive style to a tight-passive style in general. This is why there are a lot of people around in the later levels. Perhaps loosening up earlier with position may be helpful.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


- Represent strength when the villain is uber-tight.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Ah, reading skills. Are you going to teach? I know there are many signs of weakness, from players. But you first have to identify a tight player. Avoid loose players here.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Villain raises pre-flop in early/middle position. Rags flop. Villain check/folds. One sign of weaky weakness. Probably sez to himself "I just made a GREAT laydown and THAT's why I'm better than all these monkeys."

Now you think of a scenario and let's make a list.


[/ QUOTE ]

Villain calls from early position. Board folds around to the button, Hero, who calls. SB completes, BB checks. Flop is whatever, but coordinated. Villain minibets, or 2 x minibet. Hero calls. SB & BB fold. Turn comes, doesn't complete a flush or anything. Villain bets the same as the turn. Hero calls. River doesn't complete any board combinations. Villain CHECKS ...thinking "crap this guy really has something, and I just trapped my sorry self. I'll show him." Villain folds to pot sized bet.

This is the first one that comes to mind.

[Scuba Chuck]

Yugo, you posted this in the "Pocket 10s in BB" thread.

[ QUOTE ]
If you can play this way in a $11 SNG and make it more +$EV than playing TT for set value, the more power to you. However, I don't think it's possible given Party's blind structure and future considerations concerning FE and $EV equity gained by playing tight and letting fishy players destroy each other .

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm curious, what are your thoughts about change in play regarding the thoughts in this particular thread?

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
Yugo, you posted this in the "Pocket 10s in BB" thread.

[ QUOTE ]
If you can play this way in a $11 SNG and make it more +$EV than playing TT for set value, the more power to you. However, I don't think it's possible given Party's blind structure and future considerations concerning FE and $EV equity gained by playing tight and letting fishy players destroy each other .

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm curious, what are your thoughts about change in play regarding the thoughts in this particular thread?

[/ QUOTE ]

The last time I played a decent # of $11 SNGs (probably a bit less than two months ago) they seemed to contain a good # of early. Perhaps not as fishy as Adanthar might have one believe (although I guess I'm willing to defer to his judgement about $11 players calling allins with Ax, where x<=10 most of the time, if he calls me out on this).

Are they considerably tighter than then (two months ago)? I doubt it. Are they considerably tighter than 6 months ago? Perhaps -- I will defer to Aleo here as he has a much better perspective on this than I. Does time of day and sample size play a role in these findings? Probably. Could this be a cyclical phenomenon (perhaps timed loosely with the WPT schedule)? Jury is probably still out and may never be in.

Does this mean that there aren't any/enough fishy players taking each other out at early levels in SNGs anymore? It should be clear what I think so I'll let others elaborate on this point in this thread (and the other for that matter).

What seems to be a more interesting question (to me at least) is: how much has this is happening and/or impacting indirectly the mid to high buyin SNGs on Party? What impact is it having on early vs. middle vs. endgame play?

Yugoslav

[Scuba Chuck]

Yugo, I have been testing some theories out on the $10+1s the last two days. I have to concur with others on this thread that these tables are considerably tighter than my recollection. Out of 15+ that I played - 10PM to 2AM Central time, I would say that consistently there were at 8 or 9 players by level 4. And 6 or 7 in level 5.

Furthermore, there were level 1 and 2 hands that were like watching a MTT tournament. For example, computer shows the SB and BB post (with chip noise). Then there's the slight pause for UTG to push a button. Then it auto-folds all the way around to me on the button. I'm thinking - "I thought these tables were loose-fishy?"

Psychologically, you may be correct. Maybe the planets are alligned in the right pattern that moves the tide in a little and makes the multitude of PP $10+1ers tight for just a couple of days. I don't know.

Regardless, how would you play?

[HoldingFolding]

I agree they've changed, significantly enough to affect your ability to use Magus' 'Beat the 10+1s System'.
1. There's far less limping especially in levels 1-3. This means it's difficult to see a flop with PPs (in order to flop the set) without calling raise. Obviously -EV.
2. More players are stealing on levels 4 & 5, and from earlier positions. Meaning there's less opportunity for you to steal.

[rachelwxm]

I agree the game tighten up alot lately. Even there is always 1 or 2 drop early, alot of people manage to survive to level 4+. But those games are still beatable because people make bad calls or over aggressive.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree they've changed, significantly enough to affect your ability to use Magus' 'Beat the 10+1s System'.


[/ QUOTE ]

I wish I would have said this.

[Scuba Chuck]

You know I'm interested in Lori's opinion on this topic as well. My point is that if you are unable to grab an extra 50-100 chips before level 4 now, there is little to no FE to take advantage of blind stealing on any sort of consistent basis.

Unfortunately, all of the posters suggest you take an educated "gamble" when the blinds are a little higher than level 1 or 2 (implying level 3). I tend to disagree. If you lose chips here, there is no FE on level 4, nor time to try and make them up.

So, playing tight is the easiest poker behavior to adopt. Lesson 1 learned. How to counter a tight table? Lesson 2

[rachelwxm]

the reason those low limit game are very beatble imo is that after blinds hit 100, some short stack gets desperate and throw their money around. Normal party player just don't know how to play under 10bb. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ArturiusX]

What this all means is that we can't afford to mess up on the flop; they maybe tighter preflop, but we have to extract every ounce of value from our hands post-flop.

That may mean playing aggressive, they may mean jumping on every min-call, that may mean using every dirty check-raise tactic in the book.

Tough competition makes us better poker players.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
the reason those low limit game are very beatble imo is that after blinds hit 100, some short stack gets desperate and throw their money around. Normal party player just don't know how to play under 10bb.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rachel, does that mean you change your calling standards for these cases, or are you assuming someone else will?

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, all of the posters suggest you take an educated "gamble" when the blinds are a little higher than level 1 or 2 (implying level 3).


[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmmm. I obviously don't agree, /images/graemlins/grin.gif. I guess I'm suddenly not included in your 'all posters' bucket?

[ QUOTE ]

I tend to disagree. If you lose chips here, there is no FE on level 4, nor time to try and make them up.


[/ QUOTE ]

Amen.

[ QUOTE ]

So, playing tight is the easiest poker behavior to adopt. Lesson 1 learned. How to counter a tight table? Lesson 2

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahhh, but playing tight in the right circumstances while on tilt and pissed about how tight your table is may be lesson 2. Then on to lesson 3, /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

Yugoslav

[rachelwxm]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the reason those low limit game are very beatble imo is that after blinds hit 100, some short stack gets desperate and throw their money around. Normal party player just don't know how to play under 10bb.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rachel, does that mean you change your calling standards for these cases, or are you assuming someone else will?

[/ QUOTE ]

I mean blinds are important, but doubling up is same important like if you have AQ you want to A8 to call, etc. I figure in low limit they just love any ace. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Also have a good grasp of what type of hands they would push is cerntainly important, I have been doing a lot of calling lately if I believe I can over come the pennalty. That stops guys from stealing blinds from you too. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Mr_J]

"That stops guys from stealing blinds from you too."

I've found that pushing with 1k or less twice in a row at 50/100 also stops alot of stealing attempts. In general this is nice, but terrible when you get that monster.

Back to the orig topic, I played a $33 today where I won in 27 minutes.

[rachelwxm]

[ QUOTE ]

Back to the orig topic, I played a $33 today where I won in 27 minutes.

[/ QUOTE ]
considering I win one game where we were on bubble 6 hands into Level 9 at $20s yesterday, maybe I should play $30 more often? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Chu]

[ QUOTE ]
"That stops guys from stealing blinds from you too."

I've found that pushing with 1k or less twice in a row at 50/100 also stops alot of stealing attempts. In general this is nice, but terrible when you get that monster.

Back to the orig topic, I played a $33 today where I won in 27 minutes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am normally a lurker here, but I just have to comment on this one. Do most people find this statement to be true? In my expirence at $10+1's, shoving two hands in a row is a great way to get the 2nd one called, for better or worse. Does this change as the buyins go up?

[johnny005]

Ok I'm fairly new here. I'm trying to get a grasp on what you guys think should be done about these 10+1 being super tight... I've been playing them for about 3 weeks now, i have about 60 under my belt now..ITM 34%... ROI 4% /images/graemlins/frown.gif
I've been getting the bad end of alot of coin flips lately... anyways.. I read aleos guide a while back when I was playing on pacific and it would worked like a charm... On PArty it doesnt work so well. What kind of adjustments do you guys think need to be made to the guide now that the tables are much more tight-passive?

[morgan180]

Lorinda responded to a post I made about similar Party conditions her response was (paraphrasing)

If you can double through the one bad player early [or increase your stack early through another means] you can punish the table at the 50/100 level with smallish PF bets that will fold most of the table.

I tried this last night and it worked well. It's funny, the style advocated by this site seems to be building an interesting phenomenon. You see more people playing tight in to level 4 and up but you also see more people pushing blind stealing to lower rounds. I've seen a lot of pushes from CO/CO+1/CO+2 as early as level 2/3 taking down the blinds. I don't think that putting your whole stack at risk for 75 chips is the proper strategy, but if the table is tight there isn't a reason that you can't open late with a few more hands, is there?

[lorinda]

I've been playing them for about 3 weeks now, i have about 60 under my belt now..ITM 34%... ROI 4%

Why so sad?

You're new at poker and you're getting paid to learn, this is a great situation.

With all the good players here posting 25% ROIs and up, it is often possible to lose sight of the bigger picture.

4% return on investment on 60 tourneys (< inesert obligitary sample size mention here>) is somewhat better than you'd get in a bank in the same time period and if 4% is your true ROI it means you would be earning as you're learning.

The main thing to add to the guide would be "Think about what you are doing, learn about why the guide works and adjust accordingly".

Lori

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
ITM 34%... ROI 4% /images/graemlins/frown.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Turn your frown upside down! /images/graemlins/smile.gif To start with your sample size is uber-small. Plus, you say you're new so even if your long term ROI is 4% right now (which it isn't, it could easily be negative or higher) you're getting paid to play (echo of Lori's post)! If you want, you can always start playing some mind suck game like chess instead and you'll experience at least a -4% ROI in tournament/book/equipment fees, /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

Yugoslav

[Big Limpin']

Super tight 10+1's arent such a bad thing.

The "trained monkey" approach no longer lets you slide ITM by letting 7 ppl bustout. But, its easier for a good player to navigate the minefield when opponents play semi-coherent poker. You can at least put them on a range of hands. I think you gould get more firsts in tight 10+1 than a loose one. I mean that. Less ITM, more 1sts.

THeres 10 starting stacks in play, and you get ITM versus 2 guys who share about 8 of the 10 stacks. You gotta be BOTH good and lucky to get 1st even one-third of the time if this is the norm.

BUt when the game is tight, im not against the luckyest guy from the meyham (the guy with 6 skins). Theres more chance i picked up some pots, have reasonable stack, maybe even got lucky, got big, and outplayed them on the bubble.

[johnny005]

I realise that 4% ROI isnt bad but im used to Winning /images/graemlins/smile.gif Been playing pacific for a year and have cashed out a 500-800 at the 10+1, but now at party it seems I have to adjust my play... The funny thing about poker is you can think your the greatest player in the world; a month later you think back and you realize how much you sucked and how much work you still have till your any good at all /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Big Limpin']

...and you realize that maybe you played the same quality of poker last month as this month, but last month you had 4%ROI and this month you have 35%. Even though you plyed just as well/poorly both months.

[johnny005]

ok I see what your getting at, I wont know [censored] until I have a big enough sample... Ok well i'll get back to you when I'm up to 300 sng's

[Big Limpin']

Well, sort of. I dont want to be generic guy and say SSTS (sample size too small).

What i was getting at is that you can have poor results even though you play well. Having a bad month deosnt NECESSARILY mean that you have developed leaks. It might though, just not necessarily

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
...and you realize that maybe you played the same quality of poker last month as this month, but last month you had 4%ROI and this month you have 35%. Even though you plyed just as well/poorly both months.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then how about 1000?
Seriously.
/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Yugoslav

[johnny005]

1000, sng's?? sure thing boss I'm on it