QQ Hand

[beta1607]

2/4 NL at the Gaming Club. Two limpers to LP raiser who makes it 16 (450 stack) I call on the button with QQ (400 Stack) and BB calls (150 Stack) the two limpers fold.

Flop Comes 246 Rainbow
BB leads out for 4 LP raiser makes it 16 and I raise to 35 to define my opponents hands and not give a cheap card to a possible AK. BB calls and raiser folds.

The turn pairs the 4 BB checks and I check behind. My reasoning is that this is a typical way ahead way behind situation and I want to keep the pot small.

River J. BB bets out 4. I think about raising but the raise smells of a weak lead and I am a little suscpicous of the BB folp min. bet and call of my raise so I just call.

How is my line and reasoning for this situation?

[Kaz The Original]

Just call the river. Checking the turn is usually correct, against most opponents. I raise the flop more, but you really want to avoid getting pot stuck here. Whether to bet or check the turn depends entirely on your opponent and what he could possibly call your flop raise with.

Unless your opponent is very aggressive preflop, just calling with QQ is best.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
How is my line and reasoning for this situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

it's ok. but -

against some "persistant" players with underpairs to your overpair, yet overpairs to the board, you left money on the table. and thats a real possible/likely hand.

I wouldn't mind betting the turn, but your reasoning and subsequent check is ok in my mind too.

and yeah, def dont raise the river.

[MarkD]

Disclaimer: I am by no means a No-Limit player, but I am going to try and learn so with that in mind I am going to reply to posts occasionally.

I don't like this turn check. The way I read this hand, your opponent has about 85 chips left and the pot is about 140. You are not going to fold and he has done nothing to make you think that you are beat. Given the pre-flop action I think it is unlikely that your opponent was betting a 4 on the flop and when he calls your reraise I think he is becoming committed to seeing the showdown with a hand like 77-99.

With all of this in mind I think you should bet the turn and that you should bet between 50-85, but I'm leaning towards just setting your opponent all-in and betting 85. I think 50 is a reasonable compromise in that it ties your opponent to the pot for all of his chips and I think you want that in this pot.

I openly welcome someone disagreeing with me.

[solid]

What hand can the BB possibly have here that you are losing to? I can't imagine anyone playing a flopped set this weakly unless he missed a check raise on turn and is sure you rivered JJJ (highly unlikely). This seems like 77-TT, A6 trying to see a cheap showdown.
I would make it ~60 on the river and expect to get a call from these types of hands.

[Kaz The Original]

One of the things you have to understand as you move up levels is you don't want to put your stack in with one pair. In micro and small limits this is fine, but as your move up and up people get better.

How does AA or KK play this flop? When they bet, and you raise your most likely hand is an overpair. If they move in here, you probably fold 77-10-10, possibly even JJ or QQ.

So, for a shot at you hitting your 2 outer, they can stack you if you bet the turn. Note, if you bet the turn the DO stack you because you will be pot stuck.

When my opponent calls the flop raise, I do not neccessarily think I am beat, but I am not that in love with my hand.

[poboy]

I don't like the check on the turn. The reasoning you gave was that you were either way ahead or way behind. The only logical hand that you could be behind against would be 66. while that is certainly a possibilty, I think he would have reraised the flop with the str8 draw present. My guess would be a pair bigger than 6's but smaller than Q's. I would keep on firing as I expect to have the best hand the majority of the time. JMO

[solid]

Well, I don't think this guy who minbets on two streets and sits with a shortstack is a thinking player. He's clearly not an exemplary 2/4 NL player, and I would say with almost 100% certainty is a complete fish (atleast, in the stars 2/4 NL games that I play players like this are fish 100% of the time). Against guys like this I'd take QQ to the felt as an overpair to the flop every time. I understand that I'd have to show more restraint if this was the PFR I was playing against.

[MarkD]

Although I am just learning no-limit and think that your logic in this post is very sound I think in this particular hand the fact that villian has such a small stack should dominate our decision making process here. Villian only has $85 left and the pot is around $140. Even if we check behind on the turn if he moves in on the river are we really going to be able to let this go with any confidence? I think this fact dictates that we just bet the turn and not give him the 22-1 chance if he has the hand that he is representing.

If he had us covered I think checking the turn is much more viable. His min bet on the flop and subsequent call of our raise makes me think he is weak but willing to play on in this hand.

[MarkD]

I'm new to this forum but is this how threads just die off here? It feels like there is more debate within this hand and because I'm here to learn I am not satisfied with the thread just dieing off, so here I am bumping it.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Personally, I think you played it well. The only possible hands I can think of that you are beating on the turn are TT and JJ. Don't think 99, 88, or 77 are calling that re-raise. And JJ just rivered your heiny. So you clearly have to just call the river and not raise it. On the turn, I definitely think check behind is the way to play it. It is too hard to think of hands that you are beating that he could play the way he played this one: lead, call re-raise, check the turn. You very clearly have an overpair, probably a pretty big one, so he can't really call the flop on a draw, since he must assume that you will bet again on the turn. Much more likely he was trying to get you PCed by betting the turn before check/raising you.

[beta1607]

I am glad you are here posting even if you are new to NL we all have something we can learn from each other

"he has done nothing to make you think that you are beat."

When the BB flat calls after the pot has been raised twice from his initial bet set off warning bells in my head.

What possible holdings could the BB have played this way? Assuming you dont read the BB for a complete idiot do you think he is going to the felt with 77-TT on this hand?

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I think in this particular hand the fact that villian has such a small stack should dominate our decision making process here. Villian only has $85 left and the pot is around $140. Even if we check behind on the turn if he moves in on the river are we really going to be able to let this go with any confidence? I think this fact dictates that we just bet the turn and not give him the 22-1 chance if he has the hand that he is representing.

If he had us covered I think checking the turn is much more viable. His min bet on the flop and subsequent call of our raise makes me think he is weak but willing to play on in this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Your read of villain as 'weak but willing to play on' I think has already been addressed by myself and OP in his last post. To summarise, it is unlikely that someone who is weak would be willing to play on. Remember that in NL, as opposed to limit, you can lose your whole stack here. Look at the percentage of his stack that BB was willing to put into this pot on the flop. This is not at all the same as calling two cold in limit.

Anyways, I was re-reading this thread and just wanted to comment on the other point that you made here. You say that villain is so short stacked that we should be willing to go to the felt no matter what and therefore we should simply bet the turn. I think that this reasoning is not sound. Villain still has $85 left and the pot is at $140. True. But if he pushed on the river, the pot would only be laying us ~2.65:1 odds. So we would have to think that there is a 40% chance that we are ahead in order to make the call correct. I really don't think that is the case here.

[MarkD]

I'm obviously too agressive for NL atm.