Strange ruling at Mandalay Bay

[SofaCoach]

I was playing 4/8 at MB saturday night (full Vegas trip report coming in the next couple days) and this occured on my 2nd or 3rd hand at the table...

I had some trash cards in the big blind and 4 others call to see the flop. Flop is trash but doesn't match my trash, so I check with the intention of folding to a bet. EP checks, and MP bets. Cocktail waitress comes to the side to take drink orders. I take my eyes off the action for 10 seconds tops to make my order and when I look back LP and button have called, the action has past me and EP called (out of turn). The dealer was just flipping up the turn card when I said "hey, you missed me, I wanted to muck these" and tossed my cards in the muck, face down of course.

The dealer hesitated, unsure of what to do and called the floor. The floor ruled that the turn card be put back in the deck, the remaining deck reshuffled, and play out the hand. Obviously this had a big impact on the hand, the winner making a straight on the river. The dealer also chastised me for covering my cards, which I am 99% sure I wasn't doing. My cards were still on the table with a chip on them when I realized the action had passed me. (FYI, I was in seat 2).

I have 2 questions:

1) did I really screw up? I don't think it was even 10 seconds that my attention was diverted and both the EP and dealer acted out of turn. No one seemed upset with me but I felt bad anyway.

2) Why was this ruling necessary? Why couldn't they just continued the hand with my cards in the muck and the turn card already on the board. Evidently no-one knew I was in the hand anyway.

[Dynasty]

1. A few people screwed up including you (for not paying attention to what's happening at the table) and especially the dealer.

2. A new turn card should probably be put out since you actually acted after the burn and turn. It's important that all flop actions take place without seeing the turn card.

[Clarkmeister]

The rulings at MB are legendarily bad.

[wonderwes]

[ QUOTE ]
The rulings at MB are legendarily bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its because MB is just a bad poker room.

[The Dude]

There are many really wierd rules at Mandalay. I like the cardroom for what it is - the 1/2 blind structure is kind of fun - but they're out there in left field.

[youtalkfunny]

I don't know about their track record, but they made the right call here, IMO.

[Randy_Refeld]

The reason bad poker rooms continue to exist is they are filled with players that don't know they are bad poker rooms. There is a trade off; when you play in a room where the management is unfamiliar with poker you will get horrible rulings, but you get to play against people that haven't played enough to be disgusted by this. In this case MB made the right ruling, I haven't played in the place since 2001, so I can't comment on the quality of their staff.

Randy Refeld

[Clarkmeister]

I don't necessarily agree. At the very least they should've used the "natural" river card as the turn card before reshuffling. Dealer screwed up big time on this one.

[youtalkfunny]

I thought that went without saying (put out the river card before re-shuffling).

Although you and I both know that this doesn't change anything--the only thing you were ever promised on the river was a random card, and you got one.

[SofaCoach]

The deck was reshuffled creating a new turn and river card. Several of you commented that this was the correct ruling. I still don't understand this. No one had acted on the turn card and it's not like I tried to get back in the hand after seeing it.

But I know I screwed up by taking my attention away from the table while still in the hand.

[DiceyPlay]

I think the dealer is responsible to control the action. You should not have to help the dealer do their job. That will only divert your attention away from playing your best game. If you want to pay attention to something other then the cards, that's your problem. But at no time should there be an expectation that you're going to aid the dealer in performing their job. I think we all pay attention to other things then the game at times - including the dealer ... it's the nature of the beast. But that doesn't remove anyone from what they're responsible for.

If the dealer would call out the number of players in the hand after each round of betting and before putting the board cards out, I think that would help the dealer track the play. I don't know if that's a dealing rule, it seems some dealers do it and other dealers don't.

I wouldn't sweat it ... it's all part of the game.

[balt999]

Honest mistake..I don't think you had intent. I think it's the dealer's fault for not following the flow of the action.

balt999 journal about Poker and Life (http://www.livejournal.com/users/balt999/)

[youtalkfunny]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the dealer is responsible to control the action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong.

It is the player's responsibility to protect his action--not just his cards.

That's why the dealer taps on the table before putting the next card out there. It's your last chance to stop him, if he's about to put one out prematurely.

I'm not saying the dealer is blameless--but it is equally wrong to lump all of the blame that way.

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
The deck was reshuffled creating a new turn and river card. Several of you commented that this was the correct ruling. I still don't understand this. No one had acted on the turn card and it's not like I tried to get back in the hand after seeing it.


[/ QUOTE ]

I actually didn't read your post carefully. The premature burn should have been set aside. The dealer should have been instructed to burn and turn and then prior to the river shuffle the exposed card back in to the deck. It is a standard rule that if someone has not acted on the previoous round that the action must be completed and then a new card dealt. There are a couple of exceptions to this, but wanting to fold isn't one of them.

Randy Refeld

[Any2ForU]

Not much to add here, but I live in town and have seen that staff make a ton of horrible decisions. I don't know if you've seen the night floor person, but he's got an IQ slightly above retarded. And, as for averting your attention for 10 seconds....If it's one of the cocktail waitresses I'm thinking of, it's impossible not to stare for less than a full minute. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[DiceyPlay]

I didn't say anything about a player protecting his/her own action. It's the dealers responsibility to control the action. In this case the dealer messed up. Here hero had nothing to protect, he was ready to fold.

The dealer controls the game. Yes, the dealer is human and humans make mistakes. Yes, if you're in the hand it's your responsibility to look after your own action. But when the dealer messes up, the dealer should not start pointing fingers and insinuate a player made the mistake and not them.

Go wrong yourself.

[youtalkfunny]

[ QUOTE ]
Here hero had nothing to protect, he was ready to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

The other players had action to protect, no?

And please re-read the part where I said the dealer wasn't blameless in this. There's blame to spread around for everyone.

All that said, so what? We still got random cards to fall on the turn and river. No harm done.

[TruePoker CEO]

I tend to agree, except that there are sometimes different floormen on different nights. One of them is decent, the other has driven me to quit the room on more than one occasion ...

MB also has the general NoFun rule ... if it is "fun", then you cannot do it......

All that having been said, MB is still one of the better low stakes venues in town, due to the views, the looseness of the NL games and other entertainment features of the hotel/casino. (I showed up one night to play, there was a long list so I ended up seeing the Three Tenors instead for around $50.)

Truepoker CEO

[Clarkmeister]

"And please re-read the part where I said the dealer wasn't blameless in this. There's blame to spread around for everyone."

The dealer is by far the primary person to blame here though. This is true in any room, but ESPECIALLY in this room where there are like a million nitty rules to enforce, which mandates that dealers be paying attention at all times.

[Cleveland Guy]

[ QUOTE ]
The deck was reshuffled creating a new turn and river card. Several of you commented that this was the correct ruling. I still don't understand this. No one had acted on the turn card and it's not like I tried to get back in the hand after seeing it.

But I know I screwed up by taking my attention away from the table while still in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You folding after the turn - gives a good player extra insight into what you might have been holding and/or what is out there.

You have 8-4 in your BB.

Flop is 3 5 9 - you have no desire to play. You would have folded in a second.

you didn't fold, cause you were skipped, and didn't place in a bet. Now the turn is a 6.

You now are double gutted - wither either a 2 or a 7 giving you a straight. you aren't as likely to fold. and you might try and stay in without having placed that bet on the flop.

Knowing the turn card helped you make your decision, in this case to fold, in another case it might have been to bet, or call a bet.

That gave you an advantage in the hand, and was a disadantage to the other players. SO that is why your hand is folded, and the turn is re-dealt.