Jamming the pot with draws

[Jake (The Snake)]

As I skim through posts here, I often find some of the better players jamming on the flop with draws, often flush draws. This concept has been particularly confusing to me, as I do not quite understand when it is correct to do so, and why.

Here are some examples:

#1 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=160 8914&Forum=,,All_Forums,,&Words=&Searchpage=2&Limi t=25&Main=1608914&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=7 821&daterange=1&newerval=1&newertype=w&olderval=&o ldertype=&bodyprev=#Post1608914)

#2 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1530433&page=&view=&s b=5&o=)

#3 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=159 2178&Forum=f3&Words=jamming&Searchpage=0&Limit=25& Main=1592178&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=&dater ange=1&newerval=1&newertype=m&olderval=&oldertype= &bodyprev=#Post1592178)

#4 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1541048&page=&view=&s b=5&o=)




It seems to me that this would make sense when:
A. pot is big
B. many players
C. you have overcards or would like certain hands to fold

Am I on the right track here?

[maurile]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems to me that this would make sense when:
A. pot is big
B. many players
C. you have overcards or would like certain hands to fold

Am I on the right track here?

[/ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue">A</font> isn't an independent reason to raise, but it works in conjunction with <font color="blue">C</font>. The bigger the pot is, the more important it is to get other hands to fold in order to clean up your questionable outs such as overcards.

And <font color="blue">B</font> is really a special case of a more general reason to raise: to get more money in the pot when you have the best of it. "Best of it" means more than your fair share of pot equity. If there are five people in the pot, your fair share of pot equity would be 20%. So if you have a 20% chance of winning, you are indifferent about getting everyone to put more money in the pot. (You put 20% in and you get 20% back -- a break-even proposition.) But if you have a 30% chance of winning, you are delighted to have everyone put more money in the pot.

The more players you have in the pot with you, the more likely it is that your draw will give you more than your fair share of pot equity. If you have nine outs to a flush draw, you have less than your fair share against one opponent, but more than your fair share against five opponents. So you'd raise for value against five opponents but not one.

There are some draws that are so strong, however, that they have more than their fair share of pot equity against any number of opponents -- even heads up. An open-ended straight flush draw is an example.

In your first example, Chris Daddy Cool can ram and jam on that flop because he has way more than his fair share of pot equity. So he is raising for value.

[Gravy (Gravy Smoothie)]

In general (the only one of these I looked at was example #1), it is +EV to jam the pot when on a draw if...

This is tough to phrase.

Let's say you flop a flush draw. You have a 35% chance to make a flush by the river, or about 2:1. Now, if by betting or raising you get other people to put in at least $2 for every $1 you put in, you are making money on every dollar you put into the pot. In the first example with CDC jamming his flush draw/gutshot, he's getting $6 into the pot for every $1 he bets, which is a tremendous amount of value considering the fact that he's going to make his hand about 40% of the time.

In general, if you will get enough callers when you bet that the ratio of their money:your money is higher than the chance that you make your hand, it's good to jam the pot with your draw.

Hope that makes some sense.

[Jake (The Snake)]

I understand the equity concept, but have always had a questiong about this. Say, for example you had a flush draw against 3 opponents and somehow "knew" your opponents didn't have a flush draw. Obviously, you have equity. However, if it is raised on the flop ahead of you, doesn't 3 betting (or simply raising a bet) knock people out who you'd like to pay you off? I'm sure this is wrong but don't quite understand why.

[maurile]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand the equity concept, but have always had a questiong about this. Say, for example you had a flush draw against 3 opponents and somehow "knew" your opponents didn't have a flush draw. Obviously, you have equity. However, if it is raised on the flop ahead of you, doesn't 3 betting (or simply raising a bet) knock people out who you'd like to pay you off? I'm sure this is wrong but don't quite understand why.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, this becomes situation-dependent. Depending on the current size of the pot and the nature of your hand, you may want to keep people behind you in or you may want to chase them out.

If you have 7c 6c on a flop of Kc Tc 2s, you'd want to keep people behind you in because getting them to fold doesn't buy you extra outs. If you happen to pair a 6 or a 7 on the turn or river, your hand is still no good. (In this situation, you might raise after a bet and many callers, but you'd just call if the bet comes immediately from your right.)

But if you have Ac 6c on the same flop, now getting people to fold may buy you three extra outs. (Suppose someone behind you has As Jh.) The bigger the pot is, the more favorable a raise is in this situation since the outs you're purchasing become worth more.

[Jake (The Snake)]

SB checks, Hero bets, UTG raises, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button 3-bets, SB calls, Hero caps, UTG calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls.
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Let me know if I'm correct when considering whether or not to cap here...

For simplification, I'll just say each bet or raise is $1.

Hero would be adding $3 more to the pot, thus he would need at least $6 more from opponents to make the raise correct.

The results are that he does get $8, so the raise was right. What if you think somebody might fold to the cap? In this situation it does seem pretty unlikely though.

[Jake (The Snake)]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[MercTec]

FWIW, I would jam the 76c hand you described not to get rid of overcards, but to get rid of those single high clubs. Its more protecting your draw then buying outs in that case.

[Gravy (Gravy Smoothie)]

[ QUOTE ]
The results are that he does get $8, so the raise was right.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's actually getting $20 (4 bets each from 5 people).

[Jake (The Snake)]

overall on the flop he gets 20 for his 4 yes... but i mean only on the cap... instead of just calling the 3-bet for example.