Folding QQ to a re-raise?

[nightlyraver]

I started reading T.J. Cloutier's book about tournament hold'em and he has a whole chapter on playing pocket queens. He asserts that one must always raise it up with pocket queens regardless of position. Later on in the chapter, he also asserts that you will save quite a bit of money if you raised with queens, someone raises after you so you throw them away. His rationale seems to be that people who re-raise after an early player raises it usually have AA or KK and only seldom have AK or maybe AQs. However, I can't see how this is so most of the time. I have sat at many tables where early players will raise it with aces as weak as A7s, KQ, JTs, QJs, JJ-77 and sometimes even weaker holdings. Consequently, later position players will rutinely re-raise with their stronger holdings, but not necessarily only AA or KK. I have seen re-raises all the time with AA-99 and AK-AJs and even some weaker hands (hell, just watch the WSOP or WPT). In fact, I will almost always be the one doing to re-raising from late position with my queens.

Does anyone have any feedback regarding raising with QQ and then folding to a re-raise?


Thanks!

[Falker11]

I really do not like the pole. There are situations where I have folded QQ to a reraise and times where I come over the top all in. Like all other things in poker its situation dependant.
Falker

[nightlyraver]

I purposely made the poll vague. In the text it basically says that the correct move is to fold QQ to a re-raise. There was nothing in the chapter about looking at the specific situation. Note that other examples in the book stipulated things like, "a player that you have noticed to be pretty good..." and "a player who has been playing many pots..." but this was not the case with the pocket queens.

[webiggy]

Here's the issue I have with Cloutier's advice. It somewhat in conflict with the Gap Concept, which many tourney players are familiar with. It's possible that the re-raise is coming from someone who thinks that your hand not as good since you're bringing in with a raise. There is some missing info here, such as blinds, stacks, NL or Limit, etc. You could be up against a dominated PP or AJ as well as the other hands. The chances are much better that you are against a draw. Consult Doyle's book for QQ play. He also devoted some space to it. True, you don't want to go broke with them, but if you can afford to see a flop with them, by all means do so.

[drewjustdrew]

It is a generally accepted idea here not to treat Cloutier's books as gospel. The NL tourney one is written specifically for the main event of the wsop. This is a very slow and somewhat deep structure that allows you to pick your spots. If you have $10000, with limits 25-50, you raise to $200. Your opponent makes it $800 more. Maybe you fold and leave yourself with $9800 instead of calling and leaving yourself with 9000, a $2000 pot and you are out of position. Even if an ace or king don't hit the board, you still have to look out for traps or fear being behind. You pretty much have to tread lightly unless you hit a third queen. You know there are better places to spend that extra $600-$800 you were reraised.

In a faster structure, with shorter stacks, everyone must take more chances. The likelihood of you having the best hand is greater, so go ahead and push your hand and hope for the best.

[nightlyraver]

It seems that no one is really folding QQ to a re-raise in most spots. That said, what hands do you really see other players re-raising with after an early player raises?

[MLG]

I just don't see how you can get any meaningful answer to this question besides it depends. Everything depends on stack depth, relative size of the blinds, big stack little stack, among other things. There is no one way to answer this question.

[KINGKONG]

obviously you would have to look at chip stacks ,blind size and # of players remaining ,and the player themselves.you have not mentioned how much the re-raise was .but i myself fold qq quit often on a large re-raise .good luck at the tables. KINGKONG

[BusterFlush]

I agree with the answer it depends. I will throw out what your image is at the table and the image of the raiser. If your image is tight and have only shown down strong holdings and another tight player goes over the top, muck'em. If you are loose and have been caught stealing, the reraise could be with about any holding.

[docknet]

Hmmm...
I find JJ a much harder hand to play. However, as everybody else has said, whether I fold to a big raise with QQ is totally dependent on where I stand in the tourny and what everybody else looks like....